Subject: Foreign sites From: "Edward Ianni" edwianni1@........... Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 16:34:13 -0400 Hi Gang....here is something interesting (if not important) that I did = and you may want to try. I went to an online language translator site. I = then typed in the word seismograph (without quotes). I then chose the = option "translate English to Chinese (Traditional)". When the Chinese = characters appeared I copied them using the EDIT (copy) command. I then = went to Google and pasted the chinese characters into the search field = and performed a search. Very many sites came up with the option = "translate this site", which is what I did. Although the translation = isn't exact, it is close and these seldom visited sites (for Americans) = are sometimes interesting. This can also be done with other langauages. = Thanks, Ed.
Hi Gang....here is = something interesting (if=20 not important) that I did and you may want to try. I went to an online = language=20 translator site. I then typed in the word seismograph (without quotes). = I then=20 chose the option "translate English to Chinese (Traditional)". When the = Chinese=20 characters appeared I copied them using the EDIT (copy) command. I then = went to=20 Google and pasted the chinese characters into the search field and = performed a=20 search. Very many sites came up with the option "translate this = site",=20 which is what I did.  Although the translation isn't exact, it is = close and=20 these seldom visited sites (for Americans) are sometimes interesting. = This can=20 also be done with other langauages.   Thanks,=20 Ed.   
Subject: Status of the PSN file format / capacitive measurements From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9_Tegel?= rene@........... Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 21:19:50 +0200 Hi list, 2 Questions: I'd like to know how 'official' the PSN file format is. It is well described, and i'd like to let my measurement equipment also output a PSN file. However, i only seen a few applications that use it (winquake etc), which is a (semi?) commercial/paid application. However, the file format seems standard in the PSN network, so i like to comply to that standard. Is PSN3/4 file format a propierity standard or can it also freely be used by other aplications, and/or is it considered the winquake applications to be open-sourced? Is there any documentation on using capacitive measurements instead of the coil based ones? So far i saw all lehman-typed instruments equiped with a pickup coil. With my testing equipment i used two capacitor plates, each about 30cm2 large, at about 3-5 mm of eachother. On that is an variabele oscillator attached, with pulse counting i determinate position of the arm with reasonable success but no hard data on resolution. I am wondering if there ary any known disadvantages of such setup, i think it is suitable to build a Shackleford-Gundersen type this way as well. kind regards, rene __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Status of the PSN file format / capacitive measurements From: Larry Cochrane lcochrane@.............. Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 12:53:21 -0700 Hi Rene, I can answer your first questions. The PSN 3/4 file format is not proprietary, so it can be used by any application and WinQuake is not open-sourced. Regards, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN > Hi list, > > 2 Questions: > I'd like to know how 'official' the PSN file format is. It is well > described, and i'd like to let my measurement equipment also output a > PSN file. However, i only seen a few applications that use it (winquake > etc), which is a (semi?) commercial/paid application. However, the file > format seems standard in the PSN network, so i like to comply to that > standard. Is PSN3/4 file format a propierity standard or can it also > freely be used by other aplications, and/or is it considered the > winquake applications to be open-sourced? > > Is there any documentation on using capacitive measurements instead of > the coil based ones? So far i saw all lehman-typed instruments equiped > with a pickup coil. With my testing equipment i used two capacitor > plates, each about 30cm2 large, at about 3-5 mm of eachother. On that is > an variabele oscillator attached, with pulse counting i determinate > position of the arm with reasonable success but no hard data on > resolution. I am wondering if there ary any known disadvantages of such > setup, i think it is suitable to build a Shackleford-Gundersen type this > way as well. > > kind regards, > > rene > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Status of the PSN file format / capacitive measurements From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 17:13:47 EDT In a message dated 15/10/05, rene@........... writes: > Is there any documentation on using capacitive measurements instead of > the coil based ones? So far i saw all lehman-typed instruments equipped with a > pickup coil. With my testing equipment i used two capacitor plates, each > about 30cm2 large, at about 3-5 mm of each other. On that is a variable > oscillator attached, with pulse counting i determine position of the arm with > reasonable success but no hard data on resolution. I am wondering if there are any > known disadvantages of such setup, i think it is suitable to build a > Shackleford-Gundersen type this > way as well. Hi Rene, The easiest capacitative sensor to use is described at http://physics.mercer.edu/petepag/tutorial.html The drive and sensor plates can be fixed to the frame and the moving plate does not need to be earthed. Since the armature plate moves parallel to the other plates, there is no problem due to variable air damping, which you get with variable gap devices when plates approach eachother. Have a look at the LTC1043 data sheet and applications AN3, AN45 from www.linear.com Jeff Witt's capacitative bridge circuit using the LTC1043 is described at www.linear.com Application Note AN87 p87 These types should give resolutions down to tens of nano metres, if not less. You want to allow at least +/-1 cm movement on a Lehman, possibly more. Have a look at Allan's great work http://physics.mercer.edu/petepag/mkxx.pdf and http://physics.mercer.edu/petepag/MKXVIII.pdf and http://physics.mercer.edu/petepag/MKXVII.pdf I think that you can still buy the LX1358 LVDT kits from www.nuovaelettronica.it which were designed for use with a Lehman. The overall travel is +/-15 mm with +/-6mm being highly linear. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 15/10/05, rene@........... writes:

 Is there any documen= tation on using capacitive measurements instead of the coil based ones? So f= ar i saw all lehman-typed instruments equipped with a pickup coil. With my t= esting equipment i used two capacitor plates, each about 30cm2 large, at abo= ut 3-5 mm of each other. On that is a variable oscillator attached, with pul= se counting i determine position of the arm with reasonable success but no h= ard data on resolution. I am wondering if there are any known disadvantages=20= of such setup, i think it is suitable to build a Shackleford-Gundersen type=20= this=20
way as well.


Hi Rene,

      The easiest capacitative sensor to=20= use is described at http://physics.mercer.edu/petepag/tutorial.html The drive and sensor= plates can be fixed to the frame and the moving plate does not need to be e= arthed. Since the  armature plate moves parallel to the other plates, t= here is no problem due to variable air damping, which you get with variable=20= gap devices when plates approach eachother.=20

     Have a look at the LTC1043 data sheet and= applications AN3, AN45 from www.linear.com  Jeff Witt's capacitative b= ridge circuit using the LTC1043 is described at www.linear.com Application Note AN87 p87 These types should give=20= resolutions down to tens of nano metres, if not less. You want to allow at l= east +/-1 cm movement on a Lehman, possibly more.

      Have a look at Allan's great work h= ttp://physics.mercer.edu/petepag/mkxx.pdf and http://physics.mercer.edu/pete= pag/MKXVIII.pdf=20
and http://physics.mercer.edu/petepag/MKXVII.pdf

      I think that you can still buy the=20= LX1358 LVDT kits from www.nuovaelettronica.it which were designed for use wi= th a Lehman. The overall travel is +/-15 mm with +/-6mm being highly linear.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: good leveling screw source From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:03:10 -0500 Hello, I have spent a good hour looking on the web for some nice leveling screws with no luck. Does anyone on the list have a source. Something with a high thread count and a point so the thing does not walk when you turn it. Here are some pictures of my new vault. Everything is connected to my house with TCP/IP. www.volcanbaru.com/nelson/outside.JPG www.volcanbaru.com/nelson/vault2.JPG Thanks, Angel Saturday, October 15, 2005, 2:53:21 PM, you wrote: > Hi Rene, > I can answer your first questions. The PSN 3/4 file format is not proprietary, so it > can be used by any application and WinQuake is not open-sourced. > Regards, > Larry Cochrane > Redwood City, PSN >> Hi list, >> >> 2 Questions: >> I'd like to know how 'official' the PSN file format is. It is well >> described, and i'd like to let my measurement equipment also output a >> PSN file. However, i only seen a few applications that use it (winquake >> etc), which is a (semi?) commercial/paid application. However, the file >> format seems standard in the PSN network, so i like to comply to that >> standard. Is PSN3/4 file format a propierity standard or can it also >> freely be used by other aplications, and/or is it considered the >> winquake applications to be open-sourced? >> >> Is there any documentation on using capacitive measurements instead of >> the coil based ones? So far i saw all lehman-typed instruments equiped >> with a pickup coil. With my testing equipment i used two capacitor >> plates, each about 30cm2 large, at about 3-5 mm of eachother. On that is >> an variabele oscillator attached, with pulse counting i determinate >> position of the arm with reasonable success but no hard data on >> resolution. I am wondering if there ary any known disadvantages of such >> setup, i think it is suitable to build a Shackleford-Gundersen type this >> way as well. >> >> kind regards, >> >> rene >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >> the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> >> > __________________________________________________________ > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. -- Best regards, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: good leveling screw source From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:32:39 EDT In a message dated 17/10/05, sismos@.............. writes: > I have spent a good hour looking on the web for some nice leveling > screws with no luck. Does anyone on the list have a source. > > Something with a high thread count and a point so the thing does not > walk when you turn it. Hi Angel, You can buy screw level adjusting bolts with a spherical tip. They were referenced on psn in the US, I think last year, but were mild steel and fairly expensive. I understood tha they were a 'stock item' in the US. You can file / turn your own choice of bolt to a domed end. You can buy cap nuts with a domed head to screw to the bottom of the bolt. I make a V hole in the end of a SS bolt with a centre drill and stick in a SS ball bearing. This rests on a 2" square SS plate glued to the floor. If you want a very high turns ratio, Arie had a system using a bolt and a threaded rod with slightly differing threads and a central hexagonal brass adjusting bar tapped at both ends. These sorts of device have been mentioned in past PSN letters. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 17/10/05, sismos@.............. writes:

   
I have s= pent a good hour looking on the web for some nice leveling
screws with no luck. Does anyone on the list have a source.

   Something with a high thread count and a point so the= thing does not
walk when you turn it.


Hi Angel,

      You can buy screw level adjusting b= olts with a spherical tip. They were referenced on psn in the US, I think la= st year, but were mild steel and fairly expensive. I understood tha they wer= e a 'stock item' in the US.
      You can file / turn your own choice= of bolt to a domed end.=20
      You can buy cap nuts with a domed h= ead to screw to the bottom of the bolt.
      I make a V hole in the end of a SS=20= bolt with a centre drill and stick in a SS ball bearing. This rests on a 2"=20= square SS plate glued to the floor.
      If you want a very high turns ratio= , Arie had a system using a bolt and a threaded rod with slightly differing=20= threads and a central hexagonal brass adjusting bar tapped at both ends. The= se sorts of device have been mentioned in past PSN letters.=20

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: good leveling screw source From: Brett Nordgren Brett3kg@............. Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:46:25 -0400 Angel, Try: http://www.thorlabs.com/Nav.cfm?Guide_ID=70 Their stuff is pretty expensive, though. Brett At 07:03 AM 10/17/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Hello, > >I have spent a good hour looking on the web for some nice leveling >screws with no luck. Does anyone on the list have a source. > >Something with a high thread count and a point so the thing does not >walk when you turn it. > >Angel If my e-mail address above is not working you can always reach my mail form at: http://bnordgren.org/contactB.html using your Web browser. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re[2]: good leveling screw source From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 08:40:01 -0500 Hello Brett, Those are very nice and very pricey, I think that three of them might cost more than the seismometer I am building. I will have to give them a hard think, they are nice and I am looking for lots of threads. thanks, Angel Monday, October 17, 2005, 7:46:25 AM, you wrote: > Angel, > Try: http://www.thorlabs.com/Nav.cfm?Guide_ID=70 > Their stuff is pretty expensive, though. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re[2]: good leveling screw source From: Brett Nordgren Brett3kg@............. Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 10:26:31 -0400 Hello Angel, You might be able to get away with only two screws and one fixed post. Though, as I see it, 2/3 * very pricey still = very pricey. Brett At 08:40 AM 10/17/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Hello Brett, > >Those are very nice and very pricey, I think that three of them might cost >more >than the seismometer I am building. I will have to give them a hard >think, they are nice and I am looking for lots of threads. > >thanks, > >Angel If my e-mail address above is not working you can always reach my mail form at: http://bnordgren.org/contactB.html using your Web browser. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: good leveling screw source From: Dave Youden dyouden@............. Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:00:51 -0400 Angel wrote: >Hello, > >I have spent a good hour looking on the web for some nice leveling >screws with no luck. Does anyone on the list have a source. > >Something with a high thread count and a point so the thing does not >walk when you turn it. > >Here are some pictures of my new vault. Everything is connected to my >house with TCP/IP. > >www.volcanbaru.com/nelson/outside.JPG >www.volcanbaru.com/nelson/vault2.JPG > >Thanks, > >Angel > >Saturday, October 15, 2005, 2:53:21 PM, you wrote: > > > >>Hi Rene, >> >> > > > >>I can answer your first questions. The PSN 3/4 file format is not proprietary, so it >>can be used by any application and WinQuake is not open-sourced. >> >> > > > >>Regards, >>Larry Cochrane >>Redwood City, PSN >> >> > > > >>>Hi list, >>> >>>2 Questions: >>> I'd like to know how 'official' the PSN file format is. It is well >>>described, and i'd like to let my measurement equipment also output a >>>PSN file. However, i only seen a few applications that use it (winquake >>>etc), which is a (semi?) commercial/paid application. However, the file >>>format seems standard in the PSN network, so i like to comply to that >>>standard. Is PSN3/4 file format a propierity standard or can it also >>>freely be used by other aplications, and/or is it considered the >>>winquake applications to be open-sourced? >>> >>> Is there any documentation on using capacitive measurements instead of >>>the coil based ones? So far i saw all lehman-typed instruments equiped >>>with a pickup coil. With my testing equipment i used two capacitor >>>plates, each about 30cm2 large, at about 3-5 mm of eachother. On that is >>>an variabele oscillator attached, with pulse counting i determinate >>>position of the arm with reasonable success but no hard data on >>>resolution. I am wondering if there ary any known disadvantages of such >>>setup, i think it is suitable to build a Shackleford-Gundersen type this >>>way as well. >>> >>>kind regards, >>> >>>rene >>> >>>__________________________________________________________ >>> >>>Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >>> >>>To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >>>the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >>>See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > >>__________________________________________________________ >> >> > > > >>Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> > > > >>To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >>the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >>See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> >> > > > > > Try New Focus Inc. They have 80 pitch leveling screws for less than $20 US. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: good leveling screw source From: "Timothy Carpenter" GeoDynamics@....... Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 15:14:55 -0400 Angel, Sorry I can't help you with the leveling screws. However, I looked at = your vault photos. In the center of Vault2.jpg, against the wall, is a device made of pvc covered with black insulation -- what is it? Regards, -Tim- Timothy Carpenter =A0 -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... = On Behalf Of Angel Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 8:03 AM To: Larry Cochrane Subject: good leveling screw source Hello, I have spent a good hour looking on the web for some nice leveling screws with no luck. Does anyone on the list have a source. Something with a high thread count and a point so the thing does not walk when you turn it. Here are some pictures of my new vault. Everything is connected to my house with TCP/IP. www.volcanbaru.com/nelson/outside.JPG www.volcanbaru.com/nelson/vault2.JPG Thanks, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: good leveling screw source From: Mike Price mprice@........ Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 13:46:41 -0700 Angel, Try Carr Lane Mfg: http://www.carrlane.com/Catalog/index.cfm/27025071F0B221118070C1C512D020609090C0015482013180B041D1E173C3B285352455F Mike Price Angel wrote: >Hello, > >I have spent a good hour looking on the web for some nice leveling >screws with no luck. Does anyone on the list have a source. > >Something with a high thread count and a point so the thing does not >walk when you turn it. > >Here are some pictures of my new vault. Everything is connected to my >house with TCP/IP. > >www.volcanbaru.com/nelson/outside.JPG >www.volcanbaru.com/nelson/vault2.JPG > >Thanks, > >Angel > >Saturday, October 15, 2005, 2:53:21 PM, you wrote: > > > >>Hi Rene, >> >> > > > >>I can answer your first questions. The PSN 3/4 file format is not proprietary, so it >>can be used by any application and WinQuake is not open-sourced. >> >> > > > >>Regards, >>Larry Cochrane >>Redwood City, PSN >> >> > > > >>>Hi list, >>> >>>2 Questions: >>> I'd like to know how 'official' the PSN file format is. It is well >>>described, and i'd like to let my measurement equipment also output a >>>PSN file. However, i only seen a few applications that use it (winquake >>>etc), which is a (semi?) commercial/paid application. However, the file >>>format seems standard in the PSN network, so i like to comply to that >>>standard. Is PSN3/4 file format a propierity standard or can it also >>>freely be used by other aplications, and/or is it considered the >>>winquake applications to be open-sourced? >>> >>> Is there any documentation on using capacitive measurements instead of >>>the coil based ones? So far i saw all lehman-typed instruments equiped >>>with a pickup coil. With my testing equipment i used two capacitor >>>plates, each about 30cm2 large, at about 3-5 mm of eachother. On that is >>>an variabele oscillator attached, with pulse counting i determinate >>>position of the arm with reasonable success but no hard data on >>>resolution. I am wondering if there ary any known disadvantages of such >>>setup, i think it is suitable to build a Shackleford-Gundersen type this >>>way as well. >>> >>>kind regards, >>> >>>rene >>> >>>__________________________________________________________ >>> >>>Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >>> >>>To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >>>the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >>>See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > >>__________________________________________________________ >> >> > > > >>Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> > > > >>To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >>the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >>See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> >> > > > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: good leveling screw source From: "Timothy Carpenter" GeoDynamics@....... Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:15:18 -0400 Angel, Got to thinking about your leveling screws. For precision, why not use nmicrometers. I checked on ebay and you can get some pretty good looking units for just a few bucks. Cut off the "C", epoxy on a ball-bearing and you're all set. Search for << micrometer -lcd -caliper >> Regards, -Tim- Timothy Carpenter =A0 -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... = On Behalf Of Angel Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 8:03 AM To: Larry Cochrane Subject: good leveling screw source Hello, I have spent a good hour looking on the web for some nice leveling screws with no luck. Does anyone on the list have a source. Something with a high thread count and a point so the thing does not walk when you turn it. Here are some pictures of my new vault. Everything is connected to my house with TCP/IP. www.volcanbaru.com/nelson/outside.JPG www.volcanbaru.com/nelson/vault2.JPG Thanks, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: good leveling screw source From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:14:37 EDT In a message dated 17/10/05, GeoDynamics@....... writes: > Angel, > Got to thinking about your leveling screws. For precision, why not use > nmicrometers. I checked on ebay and you can get some pretty good looking > units for just a few bucks. Cut off the "C", epoxy on a ball-bearing and > you're all set. Search for << micrometer -lcd -caliper >> > Regards, > -Tim- Hi there, If you look around you can buy just the barrel and plunger - there is no need to cut up a micrometer. Many micrometers just screw together anyway. It is not really very difficult to make a conical hole in the centre of a bolt with a centre drill and stick in a ball bearing. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 17/10/05, GeoDynamics@....... writes:

Angel,
Got to thinking about your leveling screws. For precision, why not use
nmicrometers. I checked on ebay and you can get some pretty good looking
units for just a few bucks. Cut off the "C", epoxy on a ball-bearing and
you're all set. Search for << micrometer -lcd -caliper >>
Regards,
-Tim-


Hi there,

      If you look around you can buy just= the barrel and plunger - there is no need to cut up a micrometer. Many micr= ometers just screw together anyway.
      It is not really very difficult to=20= make a conical hole in the centre of a bolt with a centre drill and stick in= a ball bearing.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: EMAIL ADDRESS TO REPORT A QUAKE From: "JAMES C. ALLEN" jcallen1@........... Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:34:58 -0700 Can someone provide me with the email address to report a quake on Larry's server? Can someone provide me with the working address to include in the network lookup table of WinQuake for the NEIC? Thanks James Allen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Cochrane" To: Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 12:53 PM Subject: Re: Status of the PSN file format / capacitive measurements > Hi Rene, > > I can answer your first questions. The PSN 3/4 file format is not > proprietary, so it can be used by any application and WinQuake is not > open-sourced. > > Regards, > Larry Cochrane > Redwood City, PSN > >> Hi list, >> >> 2 Questions: >> I'd like to know how 'official' the PSN file format is. It is well >> described, and i'd like to let my measurement equipment also output a PSN >> file. However, i only seen a few applications that use it (winquake etc), >> which is a (semi?) commercial/paid application. However, the file format >> seems standard in the PSN network, so i like to comply to that standard. >> Is PSN3/4 file format a propierity standard or can it also freely be used >> by other aplications, and/or is it considered the winquake applications >> to be open-sourced? >> >> Is there any documentation on using capacitive measurements instead of >> the coil based ones? So far i saw all lehman-typed instruments equiped >> with a pickup coil. With my testing equipment i used two capacitor >> plates, each about 30cm2 large, at about 3-5 mm of eachother. On that is >> an variabele oscillator attached, with pulse counting i determinate >> position of the arm with reasonable success but no hard data on >> resolution. I am wondering if there ary any known disadvantages of such >> setup, i think it is suitable to build a Shackleford-Gundersen type this >> way as well. >> >> kind regards, >> >> rene >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of >> the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> >> > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: EMAIL ADDRESS TO REPORT A QUAKE From: "Steve Hammond" shammon1@............. Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:38:57 -0700 events@.............. Here you go James. Regards, Steve Hammond PSN San Jose, Aptos CA -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@................. Behalf Of JAMES C. ALLEN Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 7:35 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: EMAIL ADDRESS TO REPORT A QUAKE Can someone provide me with the email address to report a quake on Larry's server? Can someone provide me with the working address to include in the network lookup table of WinQuake for the NEIC? Thanks James Allen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Cochrane" To: Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 12:53 PM Subject: Re: Status of the PSN file format / capacitive measurements > Hi Rene, > > I can answer your first questions. The PSN 3/4 file format is not > proprietary, so it can be used by any application and WinQuake is not > open-sourced. > > Regards, > Larry Cochrane > Redwood City, PSN > >> Hi list, >> >> 2 Questions: >> I'd like to know how 'official' the PSN file format is. It is well >> described, and i'd like to let my measurement equipment also output a PSN >> file. However, i only seen a few applications that use it (winquake etc), >> which is a (semi?) commercial/paid application. However, the file format >> seems standard in the PSN network, so i like to comply to that standard. >> Is PSN3/4 file format a propierity standard or can it also freely be used >> by other aplications, and/or is it considered the winquake applications >> to be open-sourced? >> >> Is there any documentation on using capacitive measurements instead of >> the coil based ones? So far i saw all lehman-typed instruments equiped >> with a pickup coil. With my testing equipment i used two capacitor >> plates, each about 30cm2 large, at about 3-5 mm of eachother. On that is >> an variabele oscillator attached, with pulse counting i determinate >> position of the arm with reasonable success but no hard data on >> resolution. I am wondering if there ary any known disadvantages of such >> setup, i think it is suitable to build a Shackleford-Gundersen type this >> way as well. >> >> kind regards, >> >> rene >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of >> the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> >> > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: good leveling screw source From: "Charles R. Patton" charles.r.patton@........ Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:42:51 -0700 Roll your own from fine pitch metric screws http://www.minibearings.com.au/cgi-bin/datafill.pl?product=Screws%20-%20Machine%20-%20Steel&firstitem=1=post pkg.s of 10 M1 x0.25 (1mm) 101.5 TPI screws for $1.31 Australian.. http://www.minibearings.com.au/cgi-bin/datafill.pl?product=Nuts%20-%20Hexagonal%20-%20Stainless%20Steel&firstitem=1=post pkgs.s of 10 M1 x0.25 (1mm) 101.5 TPI nuts for $10.84 Australian (about $8.25 US) or so. So total cost $10 plus shipping or about a $1 an adjustment point. Find a couple of Bellville washers and use two nuts per screw to make anti-backlash versions, although once the weight of the seismometer is on the screw, it should be pretty much anti-backlash as is. Regards, Charles Patton ( I started a Google search with "80 tpi" screws and found this in the first page of 10 of 428 returns. So there are bound to be more.) > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: good leveling screw source From: "Charles R. Patton" charles.r.patton@........ Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 22:05:16 -0700 Also look at McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/) M1.6 16mm long 0.325 pitch (72.6 TPI) screws 91800A011 $4.03/25 91828A006 M1.6 0.35 pitch (72.6 TPI) nuts $10.60/25 McMaster has 0.25 mm pitch (101.6 TPI) screws, but I couldn't find the matching nuts. It you wanted to screw them into nylon, making a self-tapping configuration, you could go that route, too. Regards, Charles Patton > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: EMAIL ADDRESS TO REPORT A QUAKE From: Larry Cochrane lcochrane@.............. Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 00:36:29 -0700 Hi James, This zip file http://www.seismicnet.com/software/EventReportFiles.zip contains new WinQuake data files that have updated network event lookup tables. After unzipping the file copy the two dat files to the WinQuake directory and restart WinQuake. Regards, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN JAMES C. ALLEN wrote: > Can someone provide me with the email address to report a quake on Larry's > server? > Can someone provide me with the working address to include in the network > lookup table of WinQuake for the NEIC? > Thanks > James Allen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry Cochrane" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 12:53 PM > Subject: Re: Status of the PSN file format / capacitive measurements > > >> Hi Rene, >> >> I can answer your first questions. The PSN 3/4 file format is not >> proprietary, so it can be used by any application and WinQuake is not >> open-sourced. >> >> Regards, >> Larry Cochrane >> Redwood City, PSN >> >>> Hi list, >>> >>> 2 Questions: >>> I'd like to know how 'official' the PSN file format is. It is well >>> described, and i'd like to let my measurement equipment also output a PSN >>> file. However, i only seen a few applications that use it (winquake etc), >>> which is a (semi?) commercial/paid application. However, the file format >>> seems standard in the PSN network, so i like to comply to that standard. >>> Is PSN3/4 file format a propierity standard or can it also freely be used >>> by other aplications, and/or is it considered the winquake applications >>> to be open-sourced? >>> >>> Is there any documentation on using capacitive measurements instead of >>> the coil based ones? So far i saw all lehman-typed instruments equiped >>> with a pickup coil. With my testing equipment i used two capacitor >>> plates, each about 30cm2 large, at about 3-5 mm of eachother. On that is >>> an variabele oscillator attached, with pulse counting i determinate >>> position of the arm with reasonable success but no hard data on >>> resolution. I am wondering if there ary any known disadvantages of such >>> setup, i think it is suitable to build a Shackleford-Gundersen type this >>> way as well. >>> >>> kind regards, >>> >>> rene >>> >>> __________________________________________________________ >>> >>> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >>> >>> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of >>> the message (first line only): unsubscribe >>> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >>> >>> >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the >> message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: FMES seismomoter From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 04:30:13 -0500 Hello Timothy, The can in the corner is a Geodevice broadband 40 to .05 Hz. The PVC thing in the foreground is a "Dave Nelson" invention being tested and it compares very well. No moving parts except the "water" in the thing. Take a look at these two traces. Which are filtered 5 seconds to 1 Hz. www.volcanbaru.com/nelson/two_traces.jpg T One is the commercial BB and the other is the PVC "FMES". I'll bet your next question is "What is under the black insulation?" www.volcanbaru.com/nelson/fmes_parts.JPG Not much. Dave is working up a more detailed write up but he hates to type. Angel Monday, October 17, 2005, 2:14:55 PM, you wrote: > Angel, > Sorry I can't help you with the leveling screws. However, I looked at your > vault photos. In the center of Vault2.jpg, against the wall, is a device > made of pvc covered with black insulation -- what is it? > Regards, > -Tim- > Timothy Carpenter >   > -----Original Message----- > From: psn-l-request@.............. > [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On > Behalf Of Angel > Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 8:03 AM > To: Larry Cochrane > Subject: good leveling screw source > Hello, > I have spent a good hour looking on the web for some nice leveling > screws with no luck. Does anyone on the list have a source. > Something with a high thread count and a point so the thing does not > walk when you turn it. > Here are some pictures of my new vault. Everything is connected to my > house with TCP/IP. > www.volcanbaru.com/nelson/outside.JPG > www.volcanbaru.com/nelson/vault2.JPG > Thanks, > Angel > __________________________________________________________ > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. -- Best regards, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re[2]: good leveling screw source From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 04:36:09 -0500 Hello All, Great sources on the leveling screws. I have made a choice which might be the best of all worlds. I am going to use one fixed post on one of the short legs, one coarse screw with a ball bearing on the end on the other short leg and splurge on one of the $15 fancy 100 tpi jobs on the long leg which is where I want the fine adjustment. Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Digest from 10/17/2005 00:00:54 From: Roger Sparks rsparks@.......... Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 03:42:52 -0700 Try a search for "cone point set screws". For a nice picture of one, go to http://www.microthreadedproducts.com/products.htm. I went to our local John Deere farm equipment store to order from the parts department. They had a reasonable selection and fair prices for small quantities. Automotive part stores should also be able to locate cone point set screws. Roger psn-l-digest-request@.............. wrote: >.------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. >| Message 1 | >'------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' >Subject: good leveling screw source >From: Angel >Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 07:03:10 -0500 > >Hello, > >I have spent a good hour looking on the web for some nice leveling >screws with no luck. Does anyone on the list have a source. > >Something with a high thread count and a point so the thing does not >walk when you turn it. > >Here are some pictures of my new vault. Everything is connected to my >house with TCP/IP. > >www.volcanbaru.com/nelson/outside.JPG >www.volcanbaru.com/nelson/vault2.JPG > >Thanks, > >Angel > >Saturday, October 15, 2005, 2:53:21 PM, you wrote: > > > >>Hi Rene, >> >> > > > >>I can answer your first questions. The PSN 3/4 file format is not proprietary, so it >>can be used by any application and WinQuake is not open-sourced. >> >> > > > >>Regards, >>Larry Cochrane >>Redwood City, PSN >> >> > > > >>>Hi list, >>> >>>2 Questions: >>> I'd like to know how 'official' the PSN file format is. It is well >>>described, and i'd like to let my measurement equipment also output a >>>PSN file. However, i only seen a few applications that use it (winquake >>>etc), which is a (semi?) commercial/paid application. However, the file >>>format seems standard in the PSN network, so i like to comply to that >>>standard. Is PSN3/4 file format a propierity standard or can it also >>>freely be used by other aplications, and/or is it considered the >>>winquake applications to be open-sourced? >>> >>> Is there any documentation on using capacitive measurements instead of >>>the coil based ones? So far i saw all lehman-typed instruments equiped >>>with a pickup coil. With my testing equipment i used two capacitor >>>plates, each about 30cm2 large, at about 3-5 mm of eachother. On that is >>>an variabele oscillator attached, with pulse counting i determinate >>>position of the arm with reasonable success but no hard data on >>>resolution. I am wondering if there ary any known disadvantages of such >>>setup, i think it is suitable to build a Shackleford-Gundersen type this >>>way as well. >>> >>>kind regards, >>> >>>rene >>> >>>__________________________________________________________ >>> >>>Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >>> >>>To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >>>the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >>>See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >>> >>> >>> >>> > > > >>__________________________________________________________ >> >> > > > >>Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> > > > >>To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >>the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >>See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> >> > > > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: good leveling screw source From: Mark Robinson mark.robinson@............... Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:54:15 +1300 Angel wrote: > Hello, > > I have spent a good hour looking on the web for some nice leveling > screws with no luck. Does anyone on the list have a source. > > Something with a high thread count and a point so the thing does not > walk when you turn it. Roger's post got my head working. Have a look at some old carburettors at a car wreckers. I was always impressed by the flame adjustment screws in old Bic Flic lighters, but they seem to be unobtanium in NZ these days. Mark __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: good leveling screw source From: "Larry P Thomas" lpthomas@......... Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:24:08 -0500 How about adapting (modifying) a cheap micrometer as an adjustment = screw. Should 100 tpi and would have a nice knurled handle to turn. Just an = idea. It may not end up any cheaper. Later, Larry P. Thomas, wa0gwa Imagine it/Achieve it --- Dream it/Become it Larry P. Thomas, wa0gwa 1 913 244-8761 Krell Technologies (http://www.krell.com) PO BOX 3565, OLATHE, KS 66063-3565 USA=20 =A0=20 -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... = On Behalf Of Mark Robinson Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 5:54 AM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: good leveling screw source Angel wrote: > Hello, >=20 > I have spent a good hour looking on the web for some nice leveling > screws with no luck. Does anyone on the list have a source. >=20 > Something with a high thread count and a point so the thing does not > walk when you turn it. Roger's post got my head working. Have a look at some old carburettors at a car wreckers. I was always impressed by the flame adjustment screws in old Bic Flic lighters, but they seem to be unobtanium in NZ these days. Mark __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Digest from 10/17/2005 00:00:54 From: "Doug Crice" dcrice@............ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 05:29:30 -0700 McMaster Carr, www.mcmaster.com has a fantastic on-line hardware store with a searchable data base. You can find a wonderful selection of parts, they usually have everything in stock, ship the same day, and apparently ship international. Search for "set screws" and see the options available. Doug Crice __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Leveling screws From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 10:04:15 EDT Hi All, Go to http://www.mcmaster.com/ and type in 'socket cap'. Scroll down and click on Swivel-end Socket Cap Screws. These look great for a seismometer mounting! They have some in stainless as well. Remember that to keep an accurate position during large temperature changes, the nut material needs to match the screw material. If you are using an Al baseplate, I suggest that you drill a clearance hole and stick the nut on the bottom face, either with epoxy or preferably two component acrylic adhesive. You can also buy nuts with an end extension which is press fitted into a hole in the baseplate, type in 'Nuts' and click on 'Captive Nuts'. Alternatively, you can use a face cutter to make a flat bottomed hole and press in an ordinary nut. The threads can be kept in tension using a second nut on top of the plate and a wavy washer. Type in 'wavy washer' and select '18-8 Stainless Steel Wave Washer'. If one washer does not give enough 'spring', you can build a stack of alternate wavy and plain washers. Another alternative is to use whatever thread you fancy, but screw an 'Acorn Nut' onto the end of the bolt. These have a circular domed end and make quite good mountings. You can also get set screws with oval, circular, crown, round rotating and flat rotating ends...... Regards, Chris Chapman Hi All,

      Go to http://www.mcmaster.com/ and=20= type in 'socket cap'. Scroll down and click on Swivel-end Socket Cap Screws.= These look great for a seismometer mounting! They have some in stainless as= well.

      Remember that to keep an accurate p= osition during large temperature changes, the nut material needs to match th= e screw material. If you are using an Al baseplate, I suggest that you drill= a clearance hole and stick the nut on the bottom face, either with epoxy or= preferably two component acrylic adhesive. You can also buy nuts with an en= d extension which is press fitted into a hole in the baseplate, type in 'Nut= s' and click on 'Captive Nuts'. Alternatively, you can use a face cutter to=20= make a flat bottomed hole and press in an ordinary nut.

      The threads can be kept in tension=20= using a second nut on top of the plate and a wavy washer. Type in 'wavy wash= er' and select '18-8 Stainless Steel Wave Washer'. If one washer does not gi= ve enough 'spring', you can build a stack of alternate wavy and plain washer= s.

      Another alternative is to use whate= ver thread you fancy, but screw an 'Acorn Nut' onto the end of the bolt. The= se have a circular domed end and make quite good mountings.

      You can also get set screws with ov= al, circular, crown, round rotating and flat rotating ends......=20

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: good leveling screw source From: "Charles R. Patton" charles.r.patton@........ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:41:05 -0700 Chris, Your're right -- apparently frames or some such. So, anyway, got to McMaster-Carrs site http://www.mcmaster.com/ and enter : 91800A087 in the "FIND" box for the screws 91828A006 in the "FIND" box for the nuts These are all Stainless Steel, so should be stable and non-corroding. Also one other source of things. If you go to: www.harborfreight.com type "micrometer" in the "KEYWORD" box it will return a list and at the top is a 1" micrometer (895-2VGA ) for $19.99. Cheap, but very available source. It used to be you could buy a ball bearing and a small friction holder to use with micrometers so rather than a flat face, you had a point contact. I have one for my micrometer. This would be much better than trying to put a centered countersink on the face (which is generally hardened or even carbide.) Regards, Charles Patton ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: >Hi Charles, > > I can't make any of your links work. I copy / paste the reference, >check for <>, press enter and the screen just hangs..... > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Bearing Balls From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 15:59:41 EDT Hi All, If you go to http://www.mcmaster.com/ and type in 'Bearing Balls', they have a wide range of SS balls suitable for use either as the ball end for mounting bolts, or for seismometer suspensions. If you type 'tungsten carbide' there are ranges of solid carbide rods which look suitable for making 'crossed cylinder' bearings for seismometers and also solid carbide bearings. The only thing missing was a small solid triangular carbide tool tip for lathe work. These make suitable mountings for 'ball on a plane' suspensions, but they can be bought from other engineering suppliers. They carry a range of shim materials in bronze, stainless steel and nickel alloy. Regards, Chris Chapman Hi All,

     If you go to http://www.mcmaster.com/ and= type in 'Bearing Balls', they have a wide range of SS balls suitable for us= e either as the ball end for mounting bolts, or for seismometer suspensions.= =20

      If you type 'tungsten carbide' ther= e are ranges of solid carbide rods which look suitable for making 'crossed c= ylinder' bearings for seismometers and also solid carbide bearings.=20

      The only thing missing was a small=20= solid triangular carbide tool tip for lathe work. These make suitable mounti= ngs for 'ball on a plane' suspensions, but they can be bought from other eng= ineering suppliers.

      They carry a range of shim material= s in bronze, stainless steel and nickel alloy.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: good leveling screw source From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:52:17 EDT In a message dated 18/10/05, charles.r.patton@........ writes: Hi Charles, Thanks. We have been experimenting with used BIC pens. The medium size is fitted with a 1mm tungsten carbide ball and a convenient cylindrical brass holder. They clean up with meths quite nicely and extend the rundown of a pendulum by about a factor of x10 over a 2 thou brass foil suspension. Adding some light clock oil extends the period quite a bit further. McMaster also carry SS and Carbide balls and Carbide rods. Crossed cylinder carbide suspensions are also good. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 18/10/05, charles.r.patton@........ writes:

Hi Charles,

      Thanks.=20

      We have been experimenting with use= d BIC pens. The medium size is fitted with a 1mm tungsten carbide ball and a= convenient cylindrical brass holder. They clean up with meths quite nicely=20= and extend the rundown of a pendulum by about a factor of x10 over a 2 thou=20= brass foil suspension. Adding some light clock oil extends the period quite=20= a bit further.=20

      McMaster also carry SS and Carbide=20= balls and Carbide rods. Crossed cylinder carbide suspensions are also good.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 20:15:22 -0600 Hi Chris, and all, I'd think that a crossed rod hinge might be a vast improvement for one or more "hinges" on about any "garden gate" horizontal, or, for a vertical seismometers lower hinges; or, for a "S-G" hanging pendulum. It all depends on how you need to orientate two of the three rods for the specific seismometer being designed for; or, to replace the existing hinges on such. Just to be sure we're on the same setup plain...I can visualize; say, a ro= d running straight horizontally (like across this page), and one can then introduce two rods underneath the horizontal rod, on the outer extremes tha= t can go up and down (top to bottom of this page). The horizontal rod would have a centered "boom" attached that leads to the mass. One would then either have a wire (for a hanging gate horizontal), or a spring for a vertical. On a S-G of course, the boom/mass would just hang down. Of course, a vertical would (likely) need two such hinges on the bottom hinge area...and it could be possible to have the angled upper hinge of the same crossed rod design. Have never tried crossed rods as such, but, I'd think it might be as good as a ball bearing hinge design...and likely without near as much mechanical adjustments fuss; as a ball bearing hinge can need. In many ways I think; this crossed rod hinge is quite similar to ball bearings suspensions, as th= e small contact area is similar. The best forced offset of the mass for harmonic motions in timed trials I've seen (table top/edge test) for ball bearings o= n a variety of contact surfaces (without dampening), was about 6 hours. Too me, the longer a mass oscillates (without dampening); that means the hinge/ suspension has less friction, and thus the mass's enertia would be more sensitive to external local earth movements. .................................... For a S-G like, hanging pendulum (horizontal sensing), I'd think you previously mentioned zero torque suspension (zts) would be far more sensitive or friction free, but it is abit harder to build. As you know...via emails and alot of your generous help; the current table top/edge experiments here with that trial suspension, can freely oscillate up to 10-11 hours on average. My old S-G with its two thin straight hanging suspension strips, would only oscillate (without dampening), up to 35 minutes. Can heartily agree now, with your stressing trying new hinges, whether it be ball bearings, crossed rods, or the zero torque suspension, as they will al= l have alot less friction, as opposed to the older, pointed boom pivot (horizontal) razor edge boom pivot (vertical), or simply hanging strips of metal like on a S-G (horizontal), that create alot more friction/torque sensitivity limitations in the hinge/suspension contact area/medium which affects the mass enertia response to stay in one place "in space", while the earth moves. Take care, Meredith
Hi Chris, and all,
 
I'd think that a crossed rod hinge might be a vast improvement for one= or more
"hinges" on about any "garden gate" horizontal, or= , for a vertical seismometers
lower hinges; or, for a "S-G" hanging pendulum.  It all= depends on how you
need to orientate two of the three rods for the specific seismometer b= eing
designed for; or, to replace the existing hinges on such.
 
Just to be sure we're on the same setup plain...I can visualize; say, = a rod
running straight horizontally (like across this page), and one can the= n
introduce two rods underneath the horizontal rod, on the outer extreme= s that
can go up and down (top to bottom of this page).  The horizontal = rod would
have a centered "boom" attached that leads to the mass. = ; One would then
either have a wire (for a hanging gate horizontal), or a spring for a = vertical.  On
a S-G of course, the boom/mass would just hang down.  Of course, = a vertical
would (likely) need two such hinges on the bottom hinge area...and it = could
be possible to have the angled upper hinge of the same crossed rod des= ign.
 
Have never tried crossed rods as such, but, I'd think it might be as g= ood as a
ball bearing hinge design...and likely without near as much mechanical=
adjustments fuss; as a ball bearing hinge can need.  In many ways= I think;
this crossed rod hinge is quite similar to ball bearings suspensions, = as the
small contact area is similar.  The best forced offset of the mas= s for harmonic
motions in timed trials I've seen (table top/edge test) for ball beari= ngs on a
variety of contact surfaces (without dampening), was about 6 hours.&nb= sp; Too me,
the longer a mass oscillates (without dampening); that means the hinge= /
suspension has less friction, and thus the mass's enertia would be mor= e
sensitive to external local earth movements.
 
.................................... 
 
For a S-G like, hanging pendulum (horizontal sensing), I'd think you p= reviously
mentioned zero torque suspension (zts) would be far more sensitive or = friction
free, but it is abit harder to build.  As you know...via emails a= nd alot of your
generous help; the current table top/edge experiments here with that t= rial
suspension, can freely oscillate up to 10-11 hours on average.  M= y old S-G
with its two thin straight hanging suspension strips, would only oscil= late
(without dampening), up to 35 minutes.
 
Can heartily agree now, with your stressing trying new hinges, whether= it be
ball bearings, crossed rods, or the zero torque suspension, as they wi= ll all
have alot less friction, as opposed to the older, pointed boom pivot (= horizontal)
razor edge boom pivot (vertical), or simply hanging strips of metal li= ke on a
S-G (horizontal), that create alot more friction/torque sensitivity li= mitations
in the hinge/suspension contact area/medium which affects the mass ene= rtia
response to stay in one place "in space", while the earth mo= ves.
 
Take care, Meredith
 
 
Subject: Re: good leveling screw source From: "Charles R. Patton" charles.r.patton@........ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:48:24 -0700 I know Angel and others are talking about micrometers for leveling screws -- but any micrometer I'm familiar with only has 40 TPI, not a lot better than a 10/32 screw, and the screw is a lot cheaper, that's why I suggested some of the metric screws with 0.25 pitch (101.6 TPI). The laser adjustment screws are generally in the 80 TPI range with some in the 100 TPI class, but they are generally $20 or more, whiile the metric screws can be put together for a dollar or two. Today I was talking to my machinist friend, and he gets one inch micrometers for $10 from Industrial Tool Sales in Costa Mesa, California Phone: 949-631-1586. These micrometers have tungsten faces and are made in China. They look great. He may be getting a bit of a price break as they buy a lot of tooling, but nevertheless, that is still a very low price, and is the lowest price I know of. Regards, Charles Patton Larry P Thomas wrote: >How about adapting (modifying) a cheap micrometer as an adjustment screw. >Should 100 tpi and would have a nice knurled handle to turn. Just an idea. >It may not end up any cheaper. > >Later, >Larry P. Thomas, wa0gwa > >Imagine it/Achieve it --- Dream it/Become it >Larry P. Thomas, wa0gwa 1 913 244-8761 >Krell Technologies (http://www.krell.com) >PO BOX 3565, OLATHE, KS 66063-3565 USA > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On >Behalf Of Mark Robinson >Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 5:54 AM >To: psn-l@.............. >Subject: Re: good leveling screw source > >Angel wrote: > > >>Hello, >> >>I have spent a good hour looking on the web for some nice leveling >>screws with no luck. Does anyone on the list have a source. >> >>Something with a high thread count and a point so the thing does not >>walk when you turn it. >> >> > >Roger's post got my head working. > >Have a look at some old carburettors at a car wreckers. > >I was always impressed by the flame adjustment screws in old Bic Flic >lighters, but they seem to be unobtanium in NZ these days. > >Mark > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: good leveling screw source From: "James Hannon" jmhannon@......... Date: Wed, 19 Oct 105 07:33:38 CDT I have not found the need to use extra fine pitch screws for leveling. I use national fine pitch socket head screws and grind the end to a dome shape. By using a long handle allen wrench to turn the screws I can get all the fineness in the adjustment I need. Jim Hannon -- Jim Hannon http://www.fmtcs.com/web/jmhannon/ 42,11.90N,91,39.26W WB0TXL -- __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: good leveling screw source From: "Jack Ivey" ivey@.......... Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:39:24 -0400 The nice thing about micrometer barrels is that that they have more precise tolerances, bigger diameter threads and=20 a longer threaded contact area than a screw/nut=20 combination, so they will have much less radial play in the shaft. This makes anything you are supporting with them=20 more stable. If you can avoid depending on the screw for horizontal location of the piece you are supporting, that=20 might not be an issue. Jack -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Charles R. Patton Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 12:48 AM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: good leveling screw source I know Angel and others are talking about micrometers for leveling=20 screws -- but any micrometer I'm familiar with only has 40 TPI, not a=20 lot better than a 10/32 screw, and the screw is a lot cheaper, that's=20 why I suggested some of the metric screws with 0.25 pitch (101.6 TPI). =20 The laser adjustment screws are generally in the 80 TPI range with some=20 in the 100 TPI class, but they are generally $20 or more, whiile the=20 metric screws can be put together for a dollar or two.=20 Today I was talking to my machinist friend, and he gets one inch=20 micrometers for $10 from Industrial Tool Sales in Costa Mesa, California Phone: =20 949-631-1586. These micrometers have tungsten faces and are made in=20 China. They look great. He may be getting a bit of a price break as=20 they buy a lot of tooling, but nevertheless, that is still a very low=20 price, and is the lowest price I know of. Regards, Charles Patton Larry P Thomas wrote: >How about adapting (modifying) a cheap micrometer as an adjustment screw. >Should 100 tpi and would have a nice knurled handle to turn. Just an idea. >It may not end up any cheaper. > >Later, >Larry P. Thomas, wa0gwa > >Imagine it/Achieve it --- Dream it/Become it >Larry P. Thomas, wa0gwa 1 913 244-8761 >Krell Technologies (http://www.krell.com) >PO BOX 3565, OLATHE, KS 66063-3565 USA=20 > > =20 > >-----Original Message----- >From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On >Behalf Of Mark Robinson >Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2005 5:54 AM >To: psn-l@.............. >Subject: Re: good leveling screw source > >Angel wrote: > =20 > >>Hello, >> >>I have spent a good hour looking on the web for some nice leveling >>screws with no luck. Does anyone on the list have a source. >> >>Something with a high thread count and a point so the thing does not >>walk when you turn it. >> =20 >> > >Roger's post got my head working. > >Have a look at some old carburettors at a car wreckers. > >I was always impressed by the flame adjustment screws in old Bic Flic >lighters, but they seem to be unobtanium in NZ these days. > >Mark > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with=20 >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with=20 >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > > > =20 > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: good leveling screw source From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:42:45 EDT In a message dated 18/10/05, charles.r.patton@........ writes: > Chris, > Your're right -- apparently frames or some such. So, anyway, got to > McMaster-Carrs site http://www.mcmaster.com/ and enter : > 91800A087 in the "FIND" box for the screws > 91828A006 in the "FIND" box for the nuts Hi Charles, Thanks. Sorry for the slow response. Found them OK, but what size of seismometer are you thinking about? The screws are 1.2 mm OD = 0.047" and the length is 10 mm = 0.394" > I know Angel and others are talking about micrometers for leveling screws > -- but any micrometer I'm familiar with only has 40 TPI, not a lot better than > a 10/32 screw, and the screw is a lot cheaper, that's why I suggested some > of the metric screws with 0.25 pitch (101.6 TPI). The laser adjustment screws > are generally in the 80 TPI range with some in the 100 TPI class, but they > are generally $20 or more, while the metric screws can be put together for a > For light apparatus I can use SS Socket Cap 4 mm OD with a 2.5 mm ball, which is 36.3 TPI and max 1.38" long. For Lehmans and the like, I use 6 mm OD with a 5 mm ball, which is 25.4 TPI and max 1.97" long. McMaster do not seem to stock either lengths in SS. The big ++ so far as I am concerned is that you can cover a small hole in the top of your Celotex box with sticky tape and use this to intoduce a hex driver to adjust the levelling screws. I keep the tension in the mounting bolt using a second nut on the top of the baseplate and wavy washer. This effectively removes any 'slop' in the threads. The A2 grade SS range of socket caps can be centre drilled in the end with a carbide bit and some oil. I made myself a couple of centre locating attachments. In a lathe, I drilled a small central hole in a short length of hex bar to match the pilot of a centre drill. Then I drilled and blind tapped the other end to 4 or 6mm. I clamp the bolt vertically, screw on the centring tube, start the pilot hole using the centre drill, remove the centring tube and finish boring to get a 90 deg cone to hold the ball. However as I mentioned in a previous note, you can get rotating ball end and swivel end socket cap screws for McMC. You can also buy a range of 'thumb screws'. I also buy zinc plated mild steel 6 mm set screws / bolts up to 60 mm long. (or 1/4" by 2.1/2" long.) These are very convenient for mounting the two 1/4" mild steel backing plates for a quad NdFeB variable magnetic damping attachment, using three nuts with each screw. Being mild steel, they 'short out' most of any stray field due to the powerful magnets. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 18/10/05, charles.r.patton@........ writes:

Chris,
Your're right -- apparently frames or some such. So, anyway, got to=20
McMaster-Carrs site http://www.mcmaster.com/ and enter :
91800A087 in the "FIND" box for the screws
91828A006 in the "FIND" box for the nuts


Hi Charles,

      Thanks. Sorry for the slow response= .

      Found them OK, but what size of sei= smometer are you thinking about?

      The screws are 1.2 mm OD =3D 0.047"= and the length is 10 mm =3D 0.394"

I know Angel and others are= talking about micrometers for leveling screws -- but any micrometer I'm fam= iliar with only has 40 TPI, not a lot better than a 10/32 screw, and the scr= ew is a lot cheaper, that's why I suggested some of the metric screws with 0= ..25 pitch (101.6 TPI).  The laser adjustment screws are generally in th= e 80 TPI range with some in the 100 TPI class, but they are generally $20 or= more, while the metric screws can be put together for a dollar or two.

      For light apparatus I can use SS So= cket Cap 4 mm OD with a 2.5 mm ball, which is 36.3 TPI and max 1.38" long. F= or Lehmans and the like, I use 6 mm OD with a 5 mm ball, which is 25.4 TPI a= nd max 1.97" long. McMaster do not seem to stock either lengths in SS. The b= ig ++ so far as I am concerned is that you can cover a small hole in the top= of your Celotex box with sticky tape and use this to intoduce a hex driver=20= to adjust the levelling screws. I keep the tension in the mounting bolt usin= g a second nut on the top of the baseplate and wavy washer. This effectively= removes any 'slop' in the threads.

      The A2 grade SS range of socket cap= s can be centre drilled in the end with a carbide bit and some oil. I made m= yself a couple of centre locating attachments. In a lathe, I drilled a small= central hole in a short length of hex bar to match the pilot of a centre dr= ill. Then I drilled and blind tapped the other end to 4 or 6mm. I clamp the=20= bolt vertically, screw on the centring tube, start the pilot hole using the=20= centre drill, remove the centring tube and finish boring to get a 90 deg con= e to hold the ball.

       However as I mentioned in a p= revious note, you can get rotating ball end and swivel end socket cap screws= for McMC. You can also buy a range of 'thumb screws'.

     I also buy zinc plated mild steel 6 mm se= t screws / bolts up to 60 mm long. (or 1/4" by 2.1/2" long.) These are very=20= convenient for mounting the two 1/4" mild steel backing plates for a quad Nd= FeB variable magnetic damping attachment, using three nuts with each screw.=20= Being mild steel, they 'short out' most of any stray field due to the powerf= ul magnets.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: seis. book on ebay From: BOB BARNS royb1@........... Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 10:55:33 -0400 Hi gang, QUANTITATIVE SEISMOLOGY, Vol 1, Aki & Richards Item number: 6983765423 ends Oct. 24 A classic although Vol. 2 contains info on seismometers. Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: good leveling screw source From: Dave Willey davewilley@............. Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 18:10:50 -0700 (PDT) Larry, Since you got me thinking about using a micrometer for seismo leveling adjustments, why not just buy the head instead of hacking up a full micrometer? For example: McMaster-Carr online catalog - Pg 2080 has Starrett and Mitutoyo Micrometer Heads. I've used these heads for graduated adjustment on test jig leveling in the lab for optics and other lightweight uses. My only worry is the weight of the seismo itself that the mic head will have to support. One other point I should also make. Somebody ELSE paid the bill. Some of them are not cheap!) Dave Willey - KD6KWM > Larry P Thomas wrote: > > >How about adapting (modifying) a cheap micrometer > as an adjustment screw. > >Should 100 tpi and would have a nice knurled handle > to turn. Just an idea. > >It may not end up any cheaper. > > > >Later, > >Larry P. Thomas, wa0gwa __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: good leveling screw source From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 21:45:58 EDT In a message dated 21/10/05, davewilley@............. writes: > Larry, > Since you got me thinking about using a micrometer for seismo leveling > adjustments, why not just buy the head instead of hacking up a full micrometer? > > I've used these heads for graduated adjustment on test jig leveling in the > lab for optics and other lightweight uses. My only worry is the weight of the > seismo itself that the mic head will have to support. Somebody ELSE paid the > bill. > Dave Willey - KD6KWM Hi Dave, I just checked EBAY for 'Micrometer Head'. There are 19 listed at the moment, some starting from $5. I bought two 1" ones a while back and paid about $8 each. If you get a bit of tube the same ID as the OD of the rod and a matching SS bearing, you can make a good 'ball point' which doesn't wander. You can usually tighten the thread on a micrometer. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 21/10/05, davewilley@............. writes:

Larry,
Since you got me thinking about using a micrometer for seismo leveling a= djustments, why not just buy the head instead of hacking up a full micromete= r?

I've used these heads for graduated adjustment on test jig leveling in t= he lab for optics and other lightweight uses. My only worry is the weight of= the seismo itself that the mic head will have to support. Somebody ELSE pai= d the bill.=20
Dave Willey - KD6KWM


Hi Dave,

      I just checked EBAY for 'Micrometer= Head'. There are 19 listed at the moment, some starting from $5. I bought t= wo 1" ones a while back and paid about $8 each.=20

      If you get a bit of tube the same I= D as the OD of the rod and a matching SS bearing, you can make a good 'ball=20= point' which doesn't wander. You can usually tighten the thread on a microme= ter.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: [Fwd: Horizontal Pendulum] From: Larry Cochrane lcochrane@.............. Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 23:36:52 -0700 -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Horizontal Pendulum Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:33:15 -0400 From: KATHRYN ROBERTS To: Larry Cochrane Larry, thank you for your reply. The PSN-L@............... did not work. (i don't have good computer skills.) Would you post this on the list? i'm new to the list and seismology. i've enjoying reading the posts and have been thinking about a horizontal pendulum Lehman type seismo using metal shims (what is the best material for shims and best thickness?) Anyway, the horizontal pendulum would be supported by shims above and below the pendulum that are ninety degrees perpendicular to the horizontal axis of the pendulum. The upper shim would be attached to the 'mast' and then to a tube or rod that is attached to the pendulum, again with the linear axis will be perpendicular to the pendulum's horizontal plane. This would place the upper shim in tension. The lower shim is also placed in tension by attaching the end away from the coil to the above mentioned tube or pipe that is attached to the pendulum. The lower shim will run away from the mast towards the coil. One thing that will have to be determined is the position were the upper and lower tubes join the pendulum. The tubes' positions would determine the flex positon of the shims, hopefully to be able to find the point of greatest flexion of the shims with the lowest torque needed to cause the flex or bending of the shim. Have many people tried this? How did it work? Thanks, geofffrey roberts, Crystal River, Florida __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Laboratory of earthquake's prediction. From: Alexandr Yagodin midia@.............. Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 09:03:45 +0200 Hi to all! The prediction of earthquakes more, than for 2 hours prior to the beginning. This problem is technically solved. We have lead tests from one station, have received good results. http://www.tectonica.pochta.ru/recenzia.htm - This review the doctor of geology is received in the period, when I had instead of the gauge - animals. http://www.tectonica.pochta.ru/protocol.htm - The protocol of tests of system of earthquake's prediction. But two years the government does not give money, though even at session of a commission Knesset on a science 20/07/05 it was considered. I am ready to present it for any commission in Haifa. If there will be a financing - any more there will be no victims from earthquakes and tsunami. Yours faithfully to all of you. Laboratory of earthquake's prediction. Haifa. Yagodin Alexandr +972-4-8598143 (rus) (http://www.seu.ru/members/earthquakes) midia@..............

Hi to all!

The prediction of earthquakes more, than for 2 hours prior to the beginning. This problem is technically solved.

We have lead tests from one station, have received good results.

http://www.tectonica.pochta.ru/recenzia.htm  -

This review the doctor of geology is received in the period, when I had instead of the gauge - animals.

http://www.tectonica.pochta.ru/protocol.htm -  The protocol of tests of system of  earthquake’s prediction.

But two years the government does not give money, though even at session of a commission Knesset on a science 20/07/05 it was considered.

I am ready to present it for any commission in Haifa. If there will be a financing - any more there will be no victims from earthquakes and tsunami.

Yours faithfully to all of you.

Laboratory of earthquake's prediction. Haifa.

Yagodin  Alexandr

+972-4-8598143 (rus)

(http://www.seu.ru/members/earthquakes)

midia@..............

Subject: Re: Horizontal Pendulum] From: "Connie and Jim Lehman" lehmancj@........... Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:43:03 -0400 Geoffery--Thanks for your interest in seismology and the "Lehman horizontal" design. I am puzzled a bit by your use of "shims"-- my idea of shims has been only in work demanding small changes in distance--like leveling a table, or a piece of scientific apparatus. The usual shims in precision work are sheets of metal with so many l/1000ths of an inch in thickness--otherwise known as mills} Since the seismo base is a tripod-- (for stability) shim material can be used to balance and level the system. I am not sure what version of sensor plans you are following, but I suggest that you keep construction simple with a wire hinge at the top, and a knife edge on the boom end. After you get that working with a 15-20 sec free swing, properly damped, you can refine and modify your design as you like. To get a good "garden gate" swing the upper wire hinge (tensional) should be about 1/4th inch off the vertical with the compressional knife edge. Best wishes, Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Cochrane" To: Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 2:36 AM Subject: [Fwd: Horizontal Pendulum] > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Horizontal Pendulum > Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:33:15 -0400 > From: KATHRYN ROBERTS > To: Larry Cochrane > > Larry, thank you for your reply. The PSN-L@............... did not work. (i don't > have good computer skills.) Would you post this on the list? i'm new to the list and > seismology. i've enjoying reading the posts and have been thinking about a horizontal > pendulum Lehman type seismo using metal shims (what is the best material for shims > and best thickness?) Anyway, the horizontal pendulum would be supported by shims > above and below the pendulum that are ninety degrees perpendicular to the horizontal > axis of the pendulum. The upper shim would be attached to the 'mast' and then to a > tube or rod that is attached to the pendulum, again with the linear axis will be > perpendicular to the pendulum's horizontal plane. This would place the upper shim in > tension. The lower shim is also placed in tension by attaching the end away from the > coil to the above mentioned tube or pipe that is attached to the pendulum. The lower > shim will run away from the mast towards the coil. One thing that will have to be > determined is the position were the upper and lower tubes join the pendulum. The > tubes' positions would determine the flex positon of the shims, hopefully to be able > to find the point of greatest flexion of the shims with the lowest torque needed to > cause the flex or bending of the shim. Have many people tried this? How did it work? > Thanks, geofffrey roberts, Crystal River, Florida > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Horizontal Pendulum] From: "KATHRYN ROBERTS" KROBERTS23@............... Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:28:12 -0400 hi, thanks for the reply. You are right about shims being used to level things, etc. Some of the home built vertical pendulums use shims as a hinge. i want to use shims as hinges for the horizontal pendulum. The shim idea is to reduce friction and maximize the torque applied to the base/frame by earth motion. Although i have not been able to describe the design on paper, i have been able to draw the plans. One (of many) problems: will the shim material be strong enough to support the pendulum? geofffry<>< ----- Original Message ----- From: "Connie and Jim Lehman" To: Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 10:43 AM Subject: Re: Horizontal Pendulum] > Geoffery--Thanks for your interest in seismology and the "Lehman > horizontal" > design. I am puzzled a bit by your use of "shims"-- my idea of shims has > been only in work demanding small changes in distance--like leveling a > table, or a piece of scientific apparatus. The usual shims in precision > work are sheets of metal with so many l/1000ths of an inch in > thickness--otherwise known as mills} Since the seismo base is a tripod-- > (for stability) shim material can be used to balance and level the > system. > I am not sure what version of sensor plans you are following, but I > suggest that you keep construction simple with a wire hinge at the top, > and > a knife edge on the boom end. After you get that working with a 15-20 sec > free swing, properly damped, you can refine and modify your design as you > like. To get a good "garden gate" swing the upper wire hinge (tensional) > should be about 1/4th inch off the vertical with the compressional knife > edge. > Best wishes, Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry Cochrane" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 2:36 AM > Subject: [Fwd: Horizontal Pendulum] > > >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Horizontal Pendulum >> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:33:15 -0400 >> From: KATHRYN ROBERTS >> To: Larry Cochrane >> >> Larry, thank you for your reply. The PSN-L@............... did not work. > (i don't >> have good computer skills.) Would you post this on the list? i'm new to > the list and >> seismology. i've enjoying reading the posts and have been thinking about >> a > horizontal >> pendulum Lehman type seismo using metal shims (what is the best material > for shims >> and best thickness?) Anyway, the horizontal pendulum would be >> supported > by shims >> above and below the pendulum that are ninety degrees perpendicular to the > horizontal >> axis of the pendulum. The upper shim would be attached to the 'mast' >> and > then to a >> tube or rod that is attached to the pendulum, again with the linear axis > will be >> perpendicular to the pendulum's horizontal plane. This would place the > upper shim in >> tension. The lower shim is also placed in tension by attaching the end > away from the >> coil to the above mentioned tube or pipe that is attached to the >> pendulum. > The lower >> shim will run away from the mast towards the coil. One thing that will > have to be >> determined is the position were the upper and lower tubes join the > pendulum. The >> tubes' positions would determine the flex positon of the shims, hopefully > to be able >> to find the point of greatest flexion of the shims with the lowest torque > needed to >> cause the flex or bending of the shim. Have many people tried this? How > did it work? >> Thanks, geofffrey roberts, Crystal River, Florida >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >> the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: 15 to 20 second free swing From: "KATHRYN ROBERTS" KROBERTS23@............... Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 13:21:30 -0400 Hi, is the 15 to 20 second free swing dampened? Or does 'free' mean undampener? Please remember i am new to all this. Thanks, geofff<>< ----- Original Message ----- From: "Connie and Jim Lehman" To: Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 10:43 AM Subject: Re: Horizontal Pendulum] > Geoffery--Thanks for your interest in seismology and the "Lehman > horizontal" > design. I am puzzled a bit by your use of "shims"-- my idea of shims has > been only in work demanding small changes in distance--like leveling a > table, or a piece of scientific apparatus. The usual shims in precision > work are sheets of metal with so many l/1000ths of an inch in > thickness--otherwise known as mills} Since the seismo base is a tripod-- > (for stability) shim material can be used to balance and level the > system. > I am not sure what version of sensor plans you are following, but I > suggest that you keep construction simple with a wire hinge at the top, > and > a knife edge on the boom end. After you get that working with a 15-20 sec > free swing, properly damped, you can refine and modify your design as you > like. To get a good "garden gate" swing the upper wire hinge (tensional) > should be about 1/4th inch off the vertical with the compressional knife > edge. > Best wishes, Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry Cochrane" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 2:36 AM > Subject: [Fwd: Horizontal Pendulum] > > >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: Horizontal Pendulum >> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:33:15 -0400 >> From: KATHRYN ROBERTS >> To: Larry Cochrane >> >> Larry, thank you for your reply. The PSN-L@............... did not work. > (i don't >> have good computer skills.) Would you post this on the list? i'm new to > the list and >> seismology. i've enjoying reading the posts and have been thinking about >> a > horizontal >> pendulum Lehman type seismo using metal shims (what is the best material > for shims >> and best thickness?) Anyway, the horizontal pendulum would be >> supported > by shims >> above and below the pendulum that are ninety degrees perpendicular to the > horizontal >> axis of the pendulum. The upper shim would be attached to the 'mast' >> and > then to a >> tube or rod that is attached to the pendulum, again with the linear axis > will be >> perpendicular to the pendulum's horizontal plane. This would place the > upper shim in >> tension. The lower shim is also placed in tension by attaching the end > away from the >> coil to the above mentioned tube or pipe that is attached to the >> pendulum. > The lower >> shim will run away from the mast towards the coil. One thing that will > have to be >> determined is the position were the upper and lower tubes join the > pendulum. The >> tubes' positions would determine the flex positon of the shims, hopefully > to be able >> to find the point of greatest flexion of the shims with the lowest torque > needed to >> cause the flex or bending of the shim. Have many people tried this? How > did it work? >> Thanks, geofffrey roberts, Crystal River, Florida >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >> the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Horizontal Pendulum] From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:04:44 EDT In a message dated 22/10/05, KROBERTS23@............... writes: > Some of the home built vertical pendulums use shims as a > hinge. I want to use shims as hinges for the horizontal pendulum. The shim > idea is to reduce friction and maximize the torque applied to the base/frame > by earth motion. Although I have not been able to describe the design on > paper, I have been able to draw the plans. One (of many) problems: will the > shim material be strong enough to support the pendulum? geoffry<>< Hi there Geoffrey, You try to use about 2 thou thick foil. Beryllium Copper, phosphor bronze, hard bronze and stainless steel are all satisfactory. Brass may be less satisfactory. Pure copper and Aluminum are not strong enough. Two types of foil hinge may be used, usually both in tension. The 'Cardan' hinge is just vertical strips of foil clamped between two plates each side, maybe 1/16" to 1/8" apart. The crossed foil hinge joins the cut away corners of two square rods, see http://www.bryantlabs.net/seismo.html or http://www.eas.slu.edu/People/STMorrissey/index.html click on 'photos and report'. These particular hinges are for vertical seismometers, but the same principles apply to horizontal types. The 60 degree 'knife edges' used on chemical balances actually had a rounded edge - they were not actually 'sharp' - and they worked fine for light loads. Trying to use either a point in a cup or a metal cutting blade on a flat give huge contact forces and are likely to limit the performance of a seismometer, later if not immediatly. Have a look at http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/cor_psn.html for a Lehman with single wire suspensions. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 22/10/05, KROBERTS23@............... writes:

Some of the home built ver= tical pendulums  use shims as a=20
hinge. I want to use shims as hinges for the horizontal pendulum. The sh= im=20
idea is to reduce friction and maximize the torque applied to the base/f= rame=20
by earth motion.  Although I have not been able to describe the des= ign on=20
paper, I have been able to draw the plans. One (of many) problems: will=20= the=20
shim material be strong enough to support the pendulum?  geoffry<= ;><


Hi there Geoffrey,

      You try to use about 2 thou thick f= oil. Beryllium Copper, phosphor bronze, hard bronze and stainless steel are=20= all satisfactory. Brass may be less satisfactory. Pure copper and Aluminum a= re not strong enough.
      Two types of foil hinge may be used= , usually both in tension. The 'Cardan' hinge is just vertical strips of foi= l clamped between two plates each side, maybe 1/16" to 1/8" apart. The cross= ed foil hinge joins the cut away corners of two square rods, see http://www.= bryantlabs.net/seismo.html or http://www.eas.slu.edu/People/STMorrissey/inde= x.html click on 'photos and report'. These particular hinges are for vertica= l seismometers, but the same principles apply to horizontal types.
       The 60 degree 'knife edges' u= sed on chemical balances actually had a rounded edge - they were not actuall= y 'sharp' - and they worked fine for light loads. Trying to use either a poi= nt in a cup or a metal cutting blade on a flat give huge contact forces and=20= are likely to limit the performance of a seismometer, later if not immediatl= y.
      Have a look at http://www.jclahr.co= m/science/psn/cor_psn.html for a Lehman with single wire suspensions.=20
      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: 15 to 20 second free swing From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 15:08:54 EDT In a message dated 22/10/05, KROBERTS23@............... writes: > Hi, is the 15 to 20 second free swing dampened? Or does 'free' mean > Hi there, This is the free undamped swing period. Correctly damped, the arm shoud not oscillate. Consider using magnetic damping. You are much more likely to get satisfactory results than trying to use oil. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 22/10/05, KROBERTS23@............... writes:

Hi, is the 15 to 20 second=20= free swing dampened? Or does 'free' mean=20
undampener? Please remember i am new to all this. Thanks, geofff

Hi there,

      This is the free undamped swing per= iod. Correctly damped, the arm shoud not oscillate. Consider using magnetic=20= damping. You are much more likely to get satisfactory results than trying to= use oil.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: 15 to 20 second free swing From: "Connie and Jim Lehman" lehmancj@........... Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 18:49:06 -0400 HELLO AGAIN-- Yes the 15 to 20 second free swing is dampened. When set up & stabilized, a horizontal system free swing would oscillate for hours and give no definition to an event should one pass. It is a bit of a challenge to get damping right--but looks easy once you've been through it. Somewhere between free swing and critical damping(ie. no motion at all) is a satisfactory zone. Think of it as a ratio--let's say 5 to l. When the system has stabilized with a natural swing desired--there should be an equilibrum position or a stable zero point. Displace the pendulum 10 mm, release it and the pendulum should (with proper damping) overshoot the zero point by 2 mm. --that is 5 to l. I have usually tuned my sensors to 8:l ratio.--there is some leeway here. As Chris suggests, use magnetic damping rather than liquid/vane if possible. Magnetic damping adjusts so easily--like a piece of cake. Best Wishes, Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "KATHRYN ROBERTS" To: Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 1:21 PM Subject: 15 to 20 second free swing > Hi, is the 15 to 20 second free swing dampened? Or does 'free' mean > undampener? Please remember i am new to all this. Thanks, geofff<>< > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Connie and Jim Lehman" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 10:43 AM > Subject: Re: Horizontal Pendulum] > > > > Geoffery--Thanks for your interest in seismology and the "Lehman > > horizontal" > > design. I am puzzled a bit by your use of "shims"-- my idea of shims has > > been only in work demanding small changes in distance--like leveling a > > table, or a piece of scientific apparatus. The usual shims in precision > > work are sheets of metal with so many l/1000ths of an inch in > > thickness--otherwise known as mills} Since the seismo base is a tripod-- > > (for stability) shim material can be used to balance and level the > > system. > > I am not sure what version of sensor plans you are following, but I > > suggest that you keep construction simple with a wire hinge at the top, > > and > > a knife edge on the boom end. After you get that working with a 15-20 sec > > free swing, properly damped, you can refine and modify your design as you > > like. To get a good "garden gate" swing the upper wire hinge (tensional) > > should be about 1/4th inch off the vertical with the compressional knife > > edge. > > Best wishes, Jim > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Larry Cochrane" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 2:36 AM > > Subject: [Fwd: Horizontal Pendulum] > > > > > >> > >> -------- Original Message -------- > >> Subject: Horizontal Pendulum > >> Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 20:33:15 -0400 > >> From: KATHRYN ROBERTS > >> To: Larry Cochrane > >> > >> Larry, thank you for your reply. The PSN-L@............... did not work. > > (i don't > >> have good computer skills.) Would you post this on the list? i'm new to > > the list and > >> seismology. i've enjoying reading the posts and have been thinking about > >> a > > horizontal > >> pendulum Lehman type seismo using metal shims (what is the best material > > for shims > >> and best thickness?) Anyway, the horizontal pendulum would be > >> supported > > by shims > >> above and below the pendulum that are ninety degrees perpendicular to the > > horizontal > >> axis of the pendulum. The upper shim would be attached to the 'mast' > >> and > > then to a > >> tube or rod that is attached to the pendulum, again with the linear axis > > will be > >> perpendicular to the pendulum's horizontal plane. This would place the > > upper shim in > >> tension. The lower shim is also placed in tension by attaching the end > > away from the > >> coil to the above mentioned tube or pipe that is attached to the > >> pendulum. > > The lower > >> shim will run away from the mast towards the coil. One thing that will > > have to be > >> determined is the position were the upper and lower tubes join the > > pendulum. The > >> tubes' positions would determine the flex positon of the shims, hopefully > > to be able > >> to find the point of greatest flexion of the shims with the lowest torque > > needed to > >> cause the flex or bending of the shim. Have many people tried this? How > > did it work? > >> Thanks, geofffrey roberts, Crystal River, Florida > >> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> > >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >> > >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > >> the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > >> > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: 15 to 20 second free swing From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 22:52:42 -0700 Hello Jim; I do not mean to butt in it is just I am following somewhat the things you say here and I want to clarify a point on damping. Until now I have been judging damping in cycles of 360 degrees meaning I judge my damping by looking only at the positive or negative half cycle. Say I let loose with a large swing on the positive half cycle I will then measure the first and second negative swings and get my damping from those two peak values. Say it swings ten divisions and then 360 degrees later it swings one division I then say my damping is 10:1. I have been told by a Geophysicist named Willis Jacobs at Golden Colorado that a 10:1 damping is desirable to shoot for. Any comments in regard to this ? gmvoeth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Connie and Jim Lehman" To: Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 3:49 PM Subject: Re: 15 to 20 second free swing __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: 15 to 20 second free swing From: "Connie and Jim Lehman" lehmancj@........... Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 06:33:36 -0400 Hello Geoff--The 360 Degree technique sounds good here. A 10:1 ratio no doubt is an ideal. I guess when you get "tighter" than that, an event readout is compressed in size. It would be neat (for comparison purposes) to be able to have different ratios exhibited by the same sensor on the same event!! Thanks--Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff" To: Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 1:52 AM Subject: Re: 15 to 20 second free swing > Hello Jim; > > I do not mean to butt in it is just I am following > somewhat the things you say here and I want to > clarify a point on damping. > > Until now I have been judging damping in > cycles of 360 degrees meaning I judge my > damping by looking only at the positive or > negative half cycle. > > Say I let loose with a large swing on the positive > half cycle I will then measure the first and > second negative swings and get my damping > from those two peak values. > > Say it swings ten divisions and then 360 degrees later > it swings one division > I then say my damping is 10:1. > > I have been told by a Geophysicist named > Willis Jacobs at Golden Colorado > that a 10:1 damping is desirable to shoot for. > > Any comments in regard to this ? > > gmvoeth > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Connie and Jim Lehman" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 3:49 PM > Subject: Re: 15 to 20 second free swing > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: 15 to 20 second free swing From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 09:01:43 EDT In a message dated 23/10/05, lehmancj@........... writes: > Subj:Re: 15 to 20 second free swing > From: lehmancj@........... (Connie and Jim Lehman) > > Hello Geoff--The 360 Degree technique sounds good here. A 10:1 ratio no > doubt is an ideal. I guess when you get "tighter" than that, an event > readout is compressed in size. It would be neat (for comparison purposes) > to be able to have different ratios exhibited by the same sensor on the same > event!! Thanks--Jim Hi Geoff, There is a basic misunderstanding here. You look at successive half swings to define the damping. Say you deflect the boom gently to 10 mm and release it. The 10:1 would give you a movement past zero to 1 mm. This should be about right. It should then return to zero, but without going through zero for another swing! If you are getting two or more swings, you are seriously underdamped. If you look at an underdamped response, it is flat for the higher frequencies, then rises to a peak and then falls off very fast. Call http://www.geospacelp.com/c_hs10.shtml The A curve is underdamped, The B curve is about what we are looking for. You usually aim for about 70 to 80% of CRITICAL damping - the critical damping response is curve C. If your seismometer is seriously underdamped, sure it will give a bigger signal, but this will only relate to it's OWN oscillatory characteristic, NOT to the ground motion that you want to measure. The output only starts to fall seriously when the seismometer is overdamped. See http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/wbauer/damped/d.htm for a seismometer applet that gives a range of characteristics that you can choose. Read to the bottom of http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/epics/links.html#Seismometer%20Basics to get typical values. Regards, Chris Chapman > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Geoff" > Subject: Re: 15 to 20 second free swing > > > I do not mean to butt in it is just I am following somewhat the things you > say here and I want to clarify a point on damping. > > > > Until now I have been judging damping in cycles of 360 degrees meaning I > judge my damping by looking only at the positive or negative half cycle. > > Say I let loose with a large swing on the positive half cycle I will then > measure >the first and second negative swings and get my damping from those > two peak >values. > > > > Say it swings ten divisions and then 360 degrees later it swings one > division > > I then say my damping is 10:1. > > > > I have been told by a Geophysicist named Willis Jacobs at Golden Colorado > > that a 10:1 damping is desirable to shoot for. > > Any comments in regard to this? > > In a message=20= dated 23/10/05, lehmancj@........... writes:

Subj:Re: 15 to 20 second= free swing
From:    lehmancj@........... (Connie and Jim Lehman)

Hello Geoff--The 360 Degree technique sounds good here. A 10:1 ratio no
doubt is an ideal. I guess when you get "tighter" than that, an event
readout is compressed in size. It would be neat (for comparison purposes= )
to be able to have different ratios exhibited by the same sensor on the=20= same
event!!  Thanks--Jim


Hi Geoff,

      There is a basic misunderstanding h= ere. You look at successive half swings to define the damping. Say you defle= ct the boom gently to 10 mm and release it. The 10:1 would give you a moveme= nt past zero to 1 mm. This should be about right. It should then r= eturn to zero, but without going through zero for another swing!
      If you are getting two or more swin= gs, you are seriously underdamped.=20
      If you look at an underdamped re= sponse, it is flat for the higher frequencies, then rises to a peak and then falls off very fast. Call http://www.geospacelp.com/c_hs10.shtml= The A curve is underdamped, The B curve is about what we are looking for. Y= ou usually aim for about 70 to 80% of CRITICAL damping - the critical dampin= g response is curve C.=20
      If your seismometer is seriously un= derdamped, sure it will give a bigger signal, but this will only relate to <= U>it's OWN oscillatory characteristic
, NOT to the ground motion that=20= you want to measure. The output only starts to fall seriously when the s= eismometer is overdamped.
      See http://www.jclahr.com/science/p= sn/wbauer/damped/d.htm for a seismometer applet that gives a range of charac= teristics that you can choose. Read to the bottom of http://www.jclahr.com/s= cience/psn/epics/links.html#Seismometer%20Basics to get typical values.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman

----- Original Message -= ----
From: "Geoff" <gmvoeth@...........>
Subject: Re: 15 to 20 second free swing

> I do not mean to butt in it is just I am following somewhat the thi= ngs you say here and I want to clarify a point on damping.
>
> Until now I have been judging damping in cycles of 360 degrees mean= ing I judge my damping by looking only at the positive or negative half cycl= e.
> Say I let loose with a large swing on the positive half cycle I wil= l then measure >the first and second negative swings and get my damping f= rom those two peak >values.
>
> Say it swings ten divisions and then 360 degrees later it swings on= e division
> I then say my damping is 10:1.
>
> I have been told by a Geophysicist named  Willis Jacobs at Gol= den Colorado=20
> that a 10:1 damping is desirable to shoot for.
> Any comments in regard to this?
> gmvoeth

Subject: Re: 15 to 20 second free swing From: Mauro Mariotti mariotti@......... Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:35:10 +0200 Hi Larry, The WinQuake Help reports the possibility to open the GSE2.0 data format. Do WinQuake open compressed GSE2.0 data (CM6, CM5 etc...) ? The format GSE2.0 usually starst with the strings: WID2 .... STA2... DAT2... datas... CHK2... do you mean that WinQUake will accept only data file containing: BEGIN GSE2.0 WID2... STA2... DAT2... .... is it correct? Where I can find the editing syntax of the STATIONS.GS2 format ? Best Regards Mauro WinQuake uses the keyword "BEGIN GSE2.0" to see if a file is in the GSE2.0 format. This keyword must be within the first 512 bytes of the file. WinQuake supports both single and multiple seismograms in one GSE2.0 file. If there is more than one seismogram in a file, it will be treated the same way as a PEPP or SEED volume data set. The text file STATIONS.GS2 must be in the same directory as the WinQuake program file (winqk32.exe). This file is used to lookup station latitude and longitude information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 14:53:29 -0600 Hi all, Chris Chapman recently stated in a private email that he thought a crossed rod hinge suspension would have less friction/dampening than a ball bearing hinge...and he is so very right! Too visualize a crossed rod hinge: Imagine two spaced rods running up and down this page. Now; you introduce a horizontal rod centered across the other two rods, and this is the inge suspension rod that you hook up your boom/wire too. The crossed rod hinge suspension looks like the capitalized letter "H". You can visually rotate the assembly to make the hinge center rod workable for your desired horizontal or vertical instrument. Of course, for the hanging pendulum (S-G), the rod assembly is simply place= d flat atop a mast, and the center rod oscillates/rotates atop the two outer rods. For most horizontal or vertical seismometers use, the assemblys two rods are placed against the mast, (you might need acouple here) and the center rod presses against these two rods via a boom. Its possible to use the same hinge for angled horizontal or vertical top of the mast pivots also. There is NO gouged or filed slot/s in any rods to hold the position o= f the crossed rod; as that would ruin its lesser friction hinge or suspension purpose. In my new view...I'd even go so far as to say; ball bearings hinges/suspensions are less ideal for most seismometers as they do have a noted problem with highe= r friction for very small rotational displacements, whereas, crossed rod hinges/suspensions have less friction in this critical displacement area. Other hinge designs like razors, points, cardans (typical S-G hinge), shims etc., are so bad for contact friction, torque/material self dampening, that I'll not even consider or recommend their use again. I've ran many hanging pendulum (S-G like), table top/edge tests with a variety of ball bearings on various contact surfaces in the last few weeks. The purpose of the tests was to estimate the friction of the various test models; via offsetting the pendulum a set distance, and simply timing how long the pendulum will continue oscillating till it visually quits moving. Ball bearings were visually observed to be rather consistently prone to stop in a shorter time where the displacement of the mass got down to ~1//16" deflection (from zero) oscillations...and usually stopped in a hour or two. The oscillations times with ball bearings ranged from 5 to 6 hours. In the last few days, I tried acouple different rod materials in a crossed rod hinge with the same general table top/edge test platform. The first model, used 3 rods of what I believe is grade 304 stainless steel 1/4" diameter rods. That oscillation= s test ran on for ~8 hours. The second model used two drill rod shanks (clean round end), with the same stainless steel rod hinge across them, and that ran for ~7.5 hours. Small mass displacements decay oscillations on the descending order of 1/16", can go o= n for several hours thereafter till the mass stops. While there is alot of different material that could be tested; I think its very obvious from just these 2 tests, thi= s this specific type hinge is very much the better choice. There is another hinge suspension, that has yielded longer oscillations decay times that I've worked with, and that is the Zero Torque Suspension. Those models on the same table top/edge tests, gave a range of 10-11 hours. However, I think amateurs will find that crossed rod hinge/suspensions will be easier to work with, and its more adoptable for *all* hinge situations like on a typical horizontal or vertical seismometer, whereas a zero torque suspension might reasonably only be good for a hangin= g pendulum (S-G). Credit is given to Chris Chapman for suggesting trials of these various suspensions and guidance! Take care, Meredith Lamb
Hi all,
 
Chris Chapman recently stated in a private email that he thought a cro= ssed rod hinge
suspension would have less friction/dampening than a ball bearing hing= e...and he is
so very right!
 
Too visualize a crossed rod hinge:  Imagine two spaced rods runni= ng up and down this
page.  Now; you introduce a horizontal rod centered across t= he other two rods, and this
is the inge suspension rod that you hook up your boom/wire too.  = The crossed rod hinge
suspension looks like the capitalized letter "H".  You = can visually rotate the assembly
to make the hinge center rod workable for your desired horizontal or v= ertical instrument.
Of course, for the hanging pendulum (S-G), the rod assembly is simply = placed flat atop
a mast, and the center rod oscillates/rotates atop the two outer = rods.  For most horizontal
or vertical seismometers use, the assemblys two rods are placed agains= t the mast, (you
might need acouple here) and the center rod presses against these two = rods via a boom.
Its possible to use the same hinge for angled horizontal or vertical t= op of the mast pivots
also.  There is NO gouged or filed slot/s in any rods to hold the= position of the crossed
rod; as that would ruin its lesser friction hinge or suspension p= urpose.
 
In my new view...I'd even go so far as to say; ball bearings hinges/su= spensions are
less ideal for most seismometers as they do have a noted problem = with higher friction
for very small rotational displacements, whereas, crossed rod hinges/s= uspensions have
less friction in this critical displacement area.  Other hin= ge designs like razors, points,
cardans (typical S-G hinge), shims etc., are so bad for contact fricti= on, torque/material
self dampening, that I'll not even consider or recommend their use aga= in.
 
I've ran many hanging pendulum (S-G like), table top/edge tests with a= variety of ball
bearings on various contact surfaces in the last few weeks. = The purpose of the tests
was to estimate the friction of the various test models; via offsettin= g the pendulum a
set distance, and simply timing how long the pendulum will continue os= cillating till it
visually quits moving.  Ball bearings were visually observed to b= e rather consistently
prone to stop in a shorter time where the displacement of the mass got= down to ~1//16"
deflection (from zero) oscillations...and usually stopped in a hour or= two. The
oscillations times with ball bearings ranged from 5 to 6 hours.
 
In the last few days, I tried acouple different rod materials in a cro= ssed rod hinge
with the same general table top/edge test platform.  The first mo= del, used 3 rods of what
I believe is grade 304 stainless steel 1/4" diameter rods.  = That oscillations test ran on
for ~8 hours.  The second model used two drill rod shanks (clean = round end), with the
same stainless steel rod hinge across them, and that ran for ~7.5 hour= s.  Small mass
displacements decay oscillations on the descending order of 1/16"= , can go on for
several hours thereafter till the mass stops.  While there is alo= t of different material
that could be tested; I think its very obvious from just these 2 tests= , this this specific
type hinge is very much the better choice.
 
There is another hinge suspension, that has yielded longer oscillation= s decay times
that I've worked with, and that is the Zero Torque Suspension.  T= hose models on the
same table top/edge tests, gave a range of 10-11 hours.  However,= I think amateurs
will find that crossed rod hinge/suspensions will be easier to work wi= th, and its more
adoptable for all hinge situations like on a typical = horizontal or vertical seismometer,
whereas a zero torque suspension might reasonably only be good for a h= anging
pendulum (S-G).
 
Credit is given to Chris Chapman for suggesting trials of these variou= s suspensions
and guidance!
 
Take care, Meredith Lamb
 
Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions From: 1goss@........... Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 00:21:24 +0000 Meredith Lamb, Could you post pictures of the rod hinge/suspensions "your setup" This sounds like somthing I would like to try. Thanks Bryan Goss Hi all, Chris Chapman recently stated in a private email that he thought a crossed rod hinge suspension would have less friction/dampening than a ball bearing hinge...and he is so very right! Too visualize a crossed rod hinge: Imagine two spaced rods running up and down this page. Now; you introduce a horizontal rod centered across the other two rods, and this is the inge suspension rod that you hook up your boom/wire too. The crossed rod hinge suspension looks like the capitalized letter "H". You can visually rotate the assembly to make the hinge center rod workable for your desired horizontal or vertical instrument. Of course, for the hanging pendulum (S-G), the rod assembly is simply place= d flat atop a mast, and the center rod oscillates/rotates atop the two outer rods. For most horizontal or vertical seismometers use, the assemblys two rods are placed against the mast, (you might need acouple here) and the center rod presses against these two rods via a boom. Its possible to use the same hinge for angled horizontal or vertical top of the mast pivots also. There is NO gouged or filed slot/s in any rods to hold the position o= f the crossed rod; as that would ruin its lesser friction hinge or suspension purpose. In my new view...I'd even go so far as to say; ball bearings hinges/suspensions are less ideal for most seismometers as they do have a noted problem with highe= r friction for very small rotational displacements, whereas, crossed rod hinges/suspensions have less friction in this critical displacement area. Other hinge designs like razors, points, cardans (typical S-G hinge), shims etc., are so bad for contact friction, torque/material self dampening, that I'll not even consider or recommend their use again. I've ran many hanging pendulum (S-G like), table top/edge tests with a variety of ball bearings on various contact surfaces in the last few weeks. The purpose of the tests was to estimate the friction of the various test models; via offsetting the pendulum a set distance, and simply timing how long the pendulum will continue oscillating till it visually quits moving. Ball bearings were visually observed to be rather consistently prone to stop in a shorter time where the displacement of the mass got down to ~1//16" deflection (from zero) oscillations...and usually stopped in a hour or two. The oscillations times with ball bearings ranged from 5 to 6 hours. In the last few days, I tried acouple different rod materials in a crossed rod hinge with the same general table top/edge test platform. The first model, used 3 rods of what I believe is grade 304 stainless steel 1/4" diameter rods. That oscillation= s test ran on for ~8 hours. The second model used two drill rod shanks (clean round end), with the same stainless steel rod hinge across them, and that ran for ~7.5 hours. Small mass displacements decay oscillations on the descending order of 1/16", can go o= n for several hours thereafter till the mass stops. While there is alot of different material that could be tested; I think its very obvious from just these 2 tests, thi= s this specific type hinge is very much the better choice. There is another hinge suspension, that has yielded longer oscillations decay times that I've worked with, and that is the Zero Torque Suspension. Those models on the same table top/edge tests, gave a range of 10-11 hours. However, I think amateurs will find that crossed rod hinge/suspensions will be easier to work with, and its more adoptable for *all* hinge situations like on a typical horizontal or vertical seismometer, whereas a zero torque suspension might reasonably only be good for a hangin= g pendulum (S-G). Credit is given to Chris Chapman for suggesting trials of these various suspensions and guidance! Take care, Meredith Lamb
Hi all,
 
Chris Chapman recently stated in a private email that he thought a cro= ssed rod hinge
suspension would have less friction/dampening than a ball bearing hing= e...and he is
so very right!
 
Too visualize a crossed rod hinge:  Imagine two spaced rods runni= ng up and down this
page.  Now; you introduce a horizontal rod centered across t= he other two rods, and this
is the inge suspension rod that you hook up your boom/wire too.  = The crossed rod hinge
suspension looks like the capitalized letter "H".  You = can visually rotate the assembly
to make the hinge center rod workable for your desired horizontal or v= ertical instrument.
Of course, for the hanging pendulum (S-G), the rod assembly is simply = placed flat atop
a mast, and the center rod oscillates/rotates atop the two outer = rods.  For most horizontal
or vertical seismometers use, the assemblys two rods are placed agains= t the mast, (you
might need acouple here) and the center rod presses against these two = rods via a boom.
Its possible to use the same hinge for angled horizontal or vertical t= op of the mast pivots
also.  There is NO gouged or filed slot/s in any rods to hold the= position of the crossed
rod; as that would ruin its lesser friction hinge or suspension p= urpose.
 
In my new view...I'd even go so far as to say; ball bearings hinges/su= spensions are
less ideal for most seismometers as they do have a noted problem = with higher friction
for very small rotational displacements, whereas, crossed rod hinges/s= uspensions have
less friction in this critical displacement area.  Other hin= ge designs like razors, points,
cardans (typical S-G hinge), shims etc., are so bad for contact fricti= on, torque/material
self dampening, that I'll not even consider or recommend their use aga= in.
 
I've ran many hanging pendulum (S-G like), table top/edge tests with a= variety of ball
bearings on various contact surfaces in the last few weeks. = The purpose of the tests
was to estimate the friction of the various test models; via offsettin= g the pendulum a
set distance, and simply timing how long the pendulum will continue os= cillating till it
visually quits moving.  Ball bearings were visually observed to b= e rather consistently
prone to stop in a shorter time where the displacement of the mass got= down to ~1//16"
deflection (from zero) oscillations...and usually stopped in a hour or= two. The
oscillations times with ball bearings ranged from 5 to 6 hours.
 
In the last few days, I tried acouple different rod materials in a cro= ssed rod hinge
with the same general table top/edge test platform.  The first mo= del, used 3 rods of what
I believe is grade 304 stainless steel 1/4" diameter rods.  = That oscillations test ran on
for ~8 hours.  The second model used two drill rod shanks (clean = round end), with the
same stainless steel rod hinge across them, and that ran for ~7.5 hour= s.  Small mass
displacements decay oscillations on the descending order of 1/16"= , can go on for
several hours thereafter till the mass stops.  While there is alo= t of different material
that could be tested; I think its very obvious from just these 2 tests= , this this specific
type hinge is very much the better choice.
 
There is another hinge suspension, that has yielded longer oscillation= s decay times
that I've worked with, and that is the Zero Torque Suspension.  T= hose models on the
same table top/edge tests, gave a range of 10-11 hours.  However,= I think amateurs
will find that crossed rod hinge/suspensions will be easier to work wi= th, and its more
adoptable for all hinge situations like on a typical = horizontal or vertical seismometer,
whereas a zero torque suspension might reasonably only be good for a h= anging
pendulum (S-G).
 
Credit is given to Chris Chapman for suggesting trials of these variou= s suspensions
and guidance!
 
Take care, Meredith Lamb
 
Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions From: "KATHRYN ROBERTS" KROBERTS23@............... Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 21:38:40 -0400 Hi, i am enjoying the input. here! Thanks to everyone. geofffrey<>< ----- Original Message -----=20 From: meredith lamb=20 To: psn-l@................. Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 4:53 PM Subject: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings = hinge/suspensions Hi all, Chris Chapman recently stated in a private email that he thought a = crossed rod hinge suspension would have less friction/dampening than a ball bearing = hinge...and he is so very right! Too visualize a crossed rod hinge: Imagine two spaced rods running up = and down this page. Now; you introduce a horizontal rod centered across the other = two rods, and this is the inge suspension rod that you hook up your boom/wire too. The = crossed rod hinge suspension looks like the capitalized letter "H". You can visually = rotate the assembly to make the hinge center rod workable for your desired horizontal or = vertical instrument. Of course, for the hanging pendulum (S-G), the rod assembly is simply = placed flat atop a mast, and the center rod oscillates/rotates atop the two outer rods. = For most horizontal or vertical seismometers use, the assemblys two rods are placed = against the mast, (you might need acouple here) and the center rod presses against these two = rods via a boom. Its possible to use the same hinge for angled horizontal or vertical = top of the mast pivots also. There is NO gouged or filed slot/s in any rods to hold the = position of the crossed rod; as that would ruin its lesser friction hinge or suspension = purpose. In my new view...I'd even go so far as to say; ball bearings = hinges/suspensions are less ideal for most seismometers as they do have a noted problem with = higher friction for very small rotational displacements, whereas, crossed rod = hinges/suspensions have less friction in this critical displacement area. Other hinge designs = like razors, points, cardans (typical S-G hinge), shims etc., are so bad for contact = friction, torque/material self dampening, that I'll not even consider or recommend their use = again. I've ran many hanging pendulum (S-G like), table top/edge tests with a = variety of ball bearings on various contact surfaces in the last few weeks. The = purpose of the tests was to estimate the friction of the various test models; via = offsetting the pendulum a set distance, and simply timing how long the pendulum will continue = oscillating till it visually quits moving. Ball bearings were visually observed to be = rather consistently prone to stop in a shorter time where the displacement of the mass got = down to ~1//16" deflection (from zero) oscillations...and usually stopped in a hour or = two. The oscillations times with ball bearings ranged from 5 to 6 hours. In the last few days, I tried acouple different rod materials in a = crossed rod hinge with the same general table top/edge test platform. The first model, = used 3 rods of what I believe is grade 304 stainless steel 1/4" diameter rods. That = oscillations test ran on for ~8 hours. The second model used two drill rod shanks (clean round = end), with the same stainless steel rod hinge across them, and that ran for ~7.5 = hours. Small mass displacements decay oscillations on the descending order of 1/16", can = go on for several hours thereafter till the mass stops. While there is alot of = different material that could be tested; I think its very obvious from just these 2 = tests, this this specific type hinge is very much the better choice. There is another hinge suspension, that has yielded longer = oscillations decay times that I've worked with, and that is the Zero Torque Suspension. Those = models on the same table top/edge tests, gave a range of 10-11 hours. However, I = think amateurs will find that crossed rod hinge/suspensions will be easier to work = with, and its more adoptable for all hinge situations like on a typical horizontal or = vertical seismometer, whereas a zero torque suspension might reasonably only be good for a = hanging pendulum (S-G). Credit is given to Chris Chapman for suggesting trials of these = various suspensions and guidance! Take care, Meredith Lamb
Hi,  i am enjoying the = input. here!=20 Thanks to everyone. geofffrey<><
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 meredith lamb
Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 = 4:53=20 PM
Subject: Crossed rod = hinge/suspensions=20 v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions

Hi all,
 
Chris Chapman recently stated in a private email that he thought = a=20 crossed rod hinge
suspension would have less friction/dampening than a ball bearing = hinge...and he is
so very right!
 
Too visualize a crossed rod hinge:  Imagine two spaced rods = running=20 up and down this
page.  Now; you introduce a horizontal rod centered = across the=20 other two rods, and this
is the inge suspension rod that you hook up your boom/wire = too.  The=20 crossed rod hinge
suspension looks like the capitalized letter "H".  You can = visually=20 rotate the assembly
to make the hinge center rod workable for your desired horizontal = or=20 vertical instrument.
Of course, for the hanging pendulum (S-G), the rod assembly is = simply=20 placed flat atop
a mast, and the center rod oscillates/rotates atop the two = outer=20 rods.  For most horizontal
or vertical seismometers use, the assemblys two rods are placed = against=20 the mast, (you
might need acouple here) and the center rod presses against these = two=20 rods via a boom.
Its possible to use the same hinge for angled horizontal or = vertical top=20 of the mast pivots
also.  There is NO gouged or filed slot/s in any rods to = hold the=20 position of the crossed
rod; as that would ruin its lesser friction hinge or = suspension=20 purpose.
 
In my new view...I'd even go so far as to say; ball bearings=20 hinges/suspensions are
less ideal for most seismometers as they do have a noted = problem=20 with higher friction
for very small rotational displacements, whereas, crossed rod=20 hinges/suspensions have
less friction in this critical displacement area.  = Other hinge=20 designs like razors, points,
cardans (typical S-G hinge), shims etc., are so bad for contact = friction,=20 torque/material
self dampening, that I'll not even consider or recommend their = use=20 again.
 
I've ran many hanging pendulum (S-G like), table top/edge tests = with a=20 variety of ball
bearings on various contact surfaces in the last few = weeks. =20 The purpose of the tests
was to estimate the friction of the various test models; via = offsetting=20 the pendulum a
set distance, and simply timing how long the pendulum will = continue=20 oscillating till it
visually quits moving.  Ball bearings were visually observed = to be=20 rather consistently
prone to stop in a shorter time where the displacement of the = mass got=20 down to ~1//16"
deflection (from zero) oscillations...and usually stopped in a = hour or=20 two. The
oscillations times with ball bearings ranged from 5 to 6 = hours.
 
In the last few days, I tried acouple different rod materials in = a=20 crossed rod hinge
with the same general table top/edge test platform.  The = first=20 model, used 3 rods of what
I believe is grade 304 stainless steel 1/4" diameter rods.  = That=20 oscillations test ran on
for ~8 hours.  The second model used two drill rod shanks = (clean=20 round end), with the
same stainless steel rod hinge across them, and that ran for ~7.5 = hours.  Small mass
displacements decay oscillations on the descending order of = 1/16", can go=20 on for
several hours thereafter till the mass stops.  While there = is alot=20 of different material
that could be tested; I think its very obvious from just these 2 = tests,=20 this this specific
type hinge is very much the better choice.
 
There is another hinge suspension, that has yielded longer = oscillations=20 decay times
that I've worked with, and that is the Zero Torque = Suspension. =20 Those models on the
same table top/edge tests, gave a range of 10-11 hours.  = However, I=20 think amateurs
will find that crossed rod hinge/suspensions will be easier to = work with,=20 and its more
adoptable for all hinge situations like on a = typical=20 horizontal or vertical seismometer,
whereas a zero torque suspension might reasonably only be good = for a=20 hanging
pendulum (S-G).
 
Credit is given to Chris Chapman for suggesting trials of these = various=20 suspensions
and guidance!
 
Take care, Meredith Lamb
 
Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:45:40 -0600 Hi Bryan, Check out the following url for acouple photos of the crossed rod hinge suspension. This is just literally a table top/edge test trials photos. The crossed rod of the hinge is utilized as a part of the boom and mass support. The connecting "junction" of the center crossed rod and the boom is literally a plumbing compression Tee, found at many hardware stores. Four clamps are just used to hold the extending steel and the two drills. http://home.earthlink.net/~meredithlamb/crossed-rod-hinge-suspension.html While this setup is obviously large; the basic crossed rod hinge suspension can be made very small; or any size the builder needs. Take care, Meredith Lamb On 10/23/05, 1goss@........... <1goss@...........> wrote: > > Meredith Lamb, > Could you post pictures of the rod hinge/suspensions "your setup" > This sounds like something I would like to try. > Thanks Bryan Goss > > Hi Bryan,

Check out the following url for acouple photos of the crossed rod
hinge suspension.   This is just literally a table top/edge test<= br> trials photos.  The crossed rod of the hinge is utilized as a part
of the boom and mass support.  The connecting "junction" of<= br> the center crossed rod and the boom is literally a plumbing
compression Tee, found at many hardware stores.  Four clamps
are just used to hold the extending steel and the two drills.

http://home.earthlink.net/~meredithlamb/crossed-rod-hinge-suspen= sion.html

While this setup is obviously large; the basic crossed rod hinge suspension=
can be made very small; or any size the builder needs.

Take care, Meredith Lamb


On 10/23/05, 1goss@........... <= ;1goss@...........> wrote:
Meredith Lamb,
Could you post pictures of the  rod hinge/suspension= s "your setup"
This sounds like something I would like to try.=
Thanks Bryan Goss


Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:19:23 EDT In a message dated 24/10/05, 1goss@........... writes: > Meredith Lamb, > Could you post pictures of the rod hinge/suspensions "your setup" > This sounds like somthing I would like to try. Hi Bryan, You can get 1/8" tungsten carbide drills (ordinary type) from www.smallparts.com for $4.20 each. The one that I have is about 2 1/4" long and half of that is usable shank. I buy the printed circuit board tungsten carbide drills with an 1/8" shank for a bit under $4.50. I have searched several US websites for these, but the only one that I found was digikey and they wanted $7.55 each! The overall length is 1.5" and the shank is 0.9" long. You can also buy carbide spotting drills, center drills and various router and milling bits, but these are all likely to be more expensive. You can also try out round 'tool steel', but I would advise putting a drop of clock oil on the contact point and a paper dust screen around it. The oil has an 'extreme pressure' additive, which prevents metal to metal contact. Steel rolling on steel can give rust / corrosion on the contact point otherwise. Stainless steels are only 'stainless' because they oxidise very readily, giving a protective surface film. They don't like chlorides, bromides, iodides or fluorides - and this includes common salt and perspiration. On a Lehman, I mounted the vertical carbide rod on the support column and the mating horizontal on the end of the beam. If you do it the other way around, you may well have to completely reset the centring and period every time you reassemble / adjust the suspension. I have the mass offset mounted on the beam with the C of G underneath, to provide vertical stability and keep the end bearing rod horizontal. Jan Marshall uses this type of suspension See http://myweb.cableone.net/jandmarshall/ The wire figure of 8 suspensions that I have tried were made from 8 thou dia nickel plated mandolin strings, bought from a music shop. These are piano wire, but are reasonably rust resistant. See http://www.daddario.com/ The 8 thou piano wire has an 'ultimate strength' of about 16.5 lbs max. The design working stress might be from 1/4 down to 1/20 of this, depending on the application. They are a bit more difficult to set up and adjust than a crossed cylinder and you can only bend the wire once. Meredith has tried novel forms of these out with considerable success. My congratulations to him on his patience, dedication and skill! My ball on a flat suspensions were 5mm stainless steel balls on a small diamond polished triangular carbide tool bits for a lathe. I mounted the ball on the vertical support and the flat on the arm, again to fix the centre of rotation. I was fairly happy with the performance, since it seemed quite a bit better than a flex foil that I had been using. I note that www.smallparts.com do sell tungsten carbide balls. I haven't tried these, but I would expect them to perform as well as the stainless steel balls. Meredith also tried out cleaned up BIC medium ball pen tips. These use 1 mm dia carbide balls nicely mounted in a brass holder, but they are not really suitable for heavy loads. Meredith seemed quite enthusiastic about these till the tried out the figure of 8 wire and the crossed cylinder suspensions! Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 24/10/05, 1goss@........... writes:

Meredith Lamb,
Could you post pictures of the rod hinge/suspensions "your setup"
This sounds like somthing I would like to try.


Hi Bryan,

      You can get 1/8" tungsten carbide d= rills (ordinary type) from www.smallparts.com for $4.20 each. The one that I= have is about 2 1/4" long and half of that is usable shank.=20
      I buy the printed circuit board tun= gsten carbide drills with an 1/8" shank for a bit under $4.50. I have search= ed several US websites for these, but the only one that I found was digikey=20= and they wanted $7.55 each! The overall length is 1.5" and the shank is 0.9"= long.
      You can also buy carbide spotting d= rills, center drills and various router and milling bits, but these are all=20= likely to be more expensive.=20
      You can also try out round 'tool st= eel', but I would advise putting a drop of clock oil on the contact point an= d a paper dust screen around it. The oil has an 'extreme pressure' additive,= which prevents metal to metal contact. Steel rolling on steel can give rust= / corrosion on the contact point otherwise. Stainless steels are only 'stai= nless' because they oxidise very readily, giving a protective surface film.=20= They don't like chlorides, bromides, iodides or fluorides - and this include= s common salt and perspiration.=20
      On a Lehman, I mounted the vertical= carbide rod on the support column and the mating horizontal on the end of t= he beam. If you do it the other way around, you may well have to completely=20= reset the centring and period every time you reassemble / adjust the suspens= ion. I have the mass offset mounted on the beam with the C of G underneath,=20= to provide vertical stability and keep the end bearing rod horizontal. Jan M= arshall uses this type of suspension See http://myweb.cableone.net/jandmarsh= all/=20
      The wire figure of 8 suspensions th= at I have tried were made from 8 thou dia nickel plated mandolin strings, bo= ught from a music shop. These are piano wire, but are reasonably rust resist= ant. See http://www.daddario.com/ The 8 thou piano wire has an 'ultimate str= ength' of about 16.5 lbs max. The design working stress might be from 1/4 do= wn to 1/20 of this, depending on the application. They are a bit more diffic= ult to set up and adjust than a crossed cylinder and you can only bend the w= ire once.=20
      Meredith has tried novel forms of t= hese out with considerable success. My congratulations to him on his patienc= e, dedication and skill!=20

      My ball on a flat suspensions were=20= 5mm stainless steel balls on a small diamond polished triangular carbide too= l bits for a lathe. I mounted the ball on the vertical support and the flat=20= on the arm, again to fix the centre of rotation. I was fairly happy with the= performance, since it seemed quite a bit better than a flex foil that I had= been using. I note that www.smallparts.com do sell tungsten carbide balls.=20= I haven't tried these, but I would expect them to perform as well as the sta= inless steel balls.   
      Meredith also tried out cleaned up=20= BIC medium ball pen tips. These use 1 mm dia carbide balls nicely mounted in= a brass holder, but they are not really suitable for heavy loads. Meredith=20= seemed quite enthusiastic about these till the tried out the figure of 8 wir= e and the crossed cylinder suspensions!   

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman

=20
Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions From: Mark Robinson mark.robinson@............... Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 16:28:52 +1300 ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > You can get 1/8" tungsten carbide drills (ordinary type) from > www.smallparts.com for $4.20 each. The one that I have is about 2 1/4" > long and half of that is usable shank. > I buy the printed circuit board tungsten carbide drills with an > 1/8" shank for a bit under $4.50. I have searched several US websites > for these, but the only one that I found was digikey and they wanted > $7.55 each! The overall length is 1.5" and the shank is 0.9" long. > You can also buy carbide spotting drills, center drills and > various router and milling bits, but these are all likely to be more > expensive. TIG electrodes might be worth a go too. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions From: 1goss@........... Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 03:35:19 +0000 Thanks Chris and Meredith This is very helpful... Bryan In a message dated 24/10/05, 1goss@........... writes: > Meredith Lamb, > Could you post pictures of the rod hinge/suspensions "your setup" > This sounds like somthing I would like to try. Hi Bryan, You can get 1/8" tungsten carbide drills (ordinary type) from www.smallparts.com for $4.20 each. The one that I have is about 2 1/4" long and half of that is usable shank. I buy the printed circuit board tungsten carbide drills with an 1/8" shank for a bit under $4.50. I have searched several US websites for these, but the only one that I found was digikey and they wanted $7.55 each! The overall length is 1.5" and the shank is 0.9" long. You can also buy carbide spotting drills, center drills and various router and milling bits, but these are all likely to be more expensive. You can also try out round 'tool steel', but I would advise putting a drop of clock oil on the contact point and a paper dust screen around it. The oil has an 'extreme pressure' additive, which prevents metal to metal contact. Steel rolling on steel can give rust / corrosion on the contact point otherwise. Stainless steels are only 'stainless' because they oxidise very readily, giving a protective surface film. They don't like chlorides, bromides, iodides or fluorides - and this includes common salt and perspiration. On a Lehman, I mounted the vertical carbide rod on the support column and the mating horizontal on the end of the beam. If you do it the other way around, you may well have to completely reset the centring and period every time you reassemble / adjust the suspension. I have the mass offset mounted on the beam with the C of G underneath, to provide vertical stability and keep the end bearing rod horizontal. Jan Marshall uses this type of suspension See http://myweb.cableone.net/jandmarshall/ The wire figure of 8 suspensions that I have tried were made from 8 thou dia nickel plated mandolin strings, bought from a music shop. These are piano wire, but are reasonably rust resistant. See http://www.daddario.com/ The 8 thou piano wire has an 'ultimate strength' of about 16.5 lbs max. The design working stress might be from 1/4 down to 1/20 of this, depending on the application. They are a bit more difficult to set up and adjust than a crossed cylinder and you can only bend the wire once. Meredith has tried novel forms of these out with considerable success. My congratulations to him on his patience, dedication and skill! My ball on a flat suspensions were 5mm stainless steel balls on a small diamond polished triangular carbide tool bits for a lathe. I mounted the ball on the vertical support and the flat on the arm, again to fix the centre of rotation. I was fairly happy with the performance, since it seemed quite a bit better than a flex foil that I had been using. I note that www.smallparts.com do sell tungsten carbide balls. I haven't tried these, but I would expect them to perform as well as the stainless steel balls. Meredith also tried out cleaned up BIC medium ball pen tips. These use 1 mm dia carbide balls nicely mounted in a brass holder, but they are not really suitable for heavy loads. Meredith seemed quite enthusiastic about these till the tried out the figure of 8 wire and the crossed cylinder suspensions! Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 24/10/05, 1goss@........... writes:

Meredith Lamb,
Could you post pictures of the rod hinge/suspensions "your setup"
This sounds like somthing I would like to try.


Hi Bryan,

      You can get 1/8" tungsten carbide d= rills (ordinary type) from www.smallparts.com for $4.20 each. The one that I= have is about 2 1/4" long and half of that is usable shank.=20
      I buy the printed circuit board tun= gsten carbide drills with an 1/8" shank for a bit under $4.50. I have search= ed several US websites for these, but the only one that I found was digikey=20= and they wanted $7.55 each! The overall length is 1.5" and the shank is 0.9"= long.
      You can also buy carbide spotting d= rills, center drills and various router and milling bits, but these are all=20= likely to be more expensive.=20
      You can also try out round 'tool st= eel', but I would advise putting a drop of clock oil on the contact point an= d a paper dust screen around it. The oil has an 'extreme pressure' additive,= which prevents metal to metal contact. Steel rolling on steel can give rust= / corrosion on the contact point otherwise. Stainless steels are only 'stai= nless' because they oxidise very readily, giving a protective surface film.=20= They don't like chlorides, bromides, iodides or fluorides - and this include= s common salt and perspiration.=20
      On a Lehman, I mounted the vertical= carbide rod on the support column and the mating horizontal on the end of t= he beam. If you do it the other way around, you may well have to completely=20= reset the centring and period every time you reassemble / adjust the suspens= ion. I have the mass offset mounted on the beam with the C of G underneath,=20= to provide vertical stability and keep the end bearing rod horizontal. Jan M= arshall uses this type of suspension See http://myweb.cableone.net/jandmarsh= all/=20
      The wire figure of 8 suspensions th= at I have tried were made from 8 thou dia nickel plated mandolin strings, bo= ught from a music shop. These are piano wire, but are reasonably rust resist= ant. See http://www.daddario.com/ The 8 thou piano wire has an 'ultimate str= ength' of about 16.5 lbs max. The design working stress might be from 1/4 do= wn to 1/20 of this, depending on the application. They are a bit more diffic= ult to set up and adjust than a crossed cylinder and you can only bend the w= ire once.=20
      Meredith has tried novel forms of t= hese out with considerable success. My congratulations to him on his patienc= e, dedication and skill!=20

      My ball on a flat suspensions were=20= 5mm stainless steel balls on a small diamond polished triangular carbide too= l bits for a lathe. I mounted the ball on the vertical support and the flat=20= on the arm, again to fix the centre of rotation. I was fairly happy with the= performance, since it seemed quite a bit better than a flex foil that I had= been using. I note that www.smallparts.com do sell tungsten carbide balls.=20= I haven't tried these, but I would expect them to perform as well as the sta= inless steel balls.   
      Meredith also tried out cleaned up=20= BIC medium ball pen tips. These use 1 mm dia carbide balls nicely mounted in= a brass holder, but they are not really suitable for heavy loads. Meredith=20= seemed quite enthusiastic about these till the tried out the figure of 8 wir= e and the crossed cylinder suspensions!   

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman

=20
Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 23:38:53 EDT In a message dated 24/10/05, mark.robinson@............... writes: > ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > > You can get 1/8" tungsten carbide drills (ordinary type) from > > www.smallparts.com for $4.20 each. The one that I have is about 2 1/4" > > long and half of that is usable shank. > > I buy the printed circuit board tungsten carbide drills with an > > 1/8" shank for a bit under $4.50. I have searched several US websites > > for these, but the only one that I found was digikey and they wanted > > $7.55 each! The overall length is 1.5" and the shank is 0.9" long. > > TIG electrodes might be worth a go too. Hi Mark, The only TIG welding electrodes that I have used were tungsten metal and they had a rough ground finish, not semi polished. They might be worth trying out though? Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 24/10/05, mark.robinson@............... writes:

ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote:
>       You can get 1/8" tungsten carbi= de drills (ordinary type) from=20
> www.smallparts.com for $4.20 each. The one that I have is about 2 1= /4"=20
> long and half of that is usable shank.
>       I buy the printed circuit board= tungsten carbide drills with an=20
> 1/8" shank for a bit under $4.50. I have searched several US websit= es=20
> for these, but the only one that I found was digikey and they wante= d=20
> $7.55 each! The overall length is 1.5" and the shank is 0.9" long.

TIG electrodes might be worth a go too.


Hi Mark,

      The only TIG welding electrodes tha= t I have used were tungsten metal and they had a rough ground finish, not se= mi polished. They might be worth trying out though?

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions From: "Charles R. Patton" charles.r.patton@........ Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 09:02:50 -0700 Some suggestions for sources: The Electronic Goldmine http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/searchprods.asp part no. G961 is three carbide router bits with 1/8 " shanks for $2. I've bought these in the past and they have very good finishes and the shanks are about 1/2 inch long. If you're in good graces with your dentist, ask him for used dental drills (actually minature router bits.) However be aware that these may only be carbide brazed to HS steel shanks (like the ones I got.) But I guess that some may be carbide all the way. I'd be interested if your results vary! Look at part no. 8788A124 from McMaster Carr 1 1/2 in. long by 1/8 in dia. carbide drill blanks. $1.95 ea. Many other lengths and dia. available. http://www.mcmaster.com/ Regards, Charles Patton ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: >In a message dated 24/10/05, mark.robinson@............... writes: > > > >>ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: >> >> >>> You can get 1/8" tungsten carbide drills (ordinary type) from >>>www.smallparts.com for $4.20 each. The one that I have is about 2 1/4" >>>long and half of that is usable shank. >>> I buy the printed circuit board tungsten carbide drills with an >>>1/8" shank for a bit under $4.50. I have searched several US websites >>>for these, but the only one that I found was digikey and they wanted >>>$7.55 each! The overall length is 1.5" and the shank is 0.9" long. >>> >>> >>TIG electrodes might be worth a go too. >> >> > >Hi Mark, > > The only TIG welding electrodes that I have used were tungsten metal >and they had a rough ground finish, not semi polished. They might be worth >trying out though? > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman > > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 12:03:17 -0600 Hi all, Actually....irrespective of this fine reference below....there is a question, at least in my mind that is wondering what would happen, if, say, the two outside rods are smaller in diameter than the center rod? Would the friction be reduced or increased? What if the center rod is smaller than the outside rods? I'd think it might not make much friction difference....but one can be surprised. Anyway, sooner or later someone will try such..... Take care, Meredith Lamb On 10/24/05, Charles R. Patton wrote: > > Some suggestions for sources: > > The Electronic Goldmine > http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/searchprods.asp > part no. G961 > is three carbide router bits with 1/8 " shanks for $2. I've bought > these in the past and they have very good finishes and the shanks are > about 1/2 inch long. > > If you're in good graces with your dentist, ask him for used dental > drills (actually minature router bits.) However be aware that these may > only be carbide brazed to HS steel shanks (like the ones I got.) But I > guess that some may be carbide all the way. I'd be interested if your > results vary! > > Look at part no. 8788A124 > from McMaster Carr 1 1/2 in. long by 1/8 in dia. carbide drill blanks. > $1.95 ea. Many other lengths and dia. available. > http://www.mcmaster.com/ > > Regards, > Charles Patton > > > >
Hi all,
 
Actually....irrespective of this fine reference below....there is a qu= estion, at least
in my mind that is wondering what would happen, if, say, the two outsi= de rods
are smaller in diameter than the center rod?  Would the friction = be reduced or
increased?  What if the center rod is smaller than the outside ro= ds?  I'd think
it might not make much friction difference....but one can be surprised= ..  Anyway,
sooner or later someone will try such.....
 
Take care, Meredith Lamb 

 
On 10/24/05, Charles R. Patton <cha= rles.r.patton@........> wrote:
Some suggestions for sources:
The Electronic Goldmine
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/searchprods.asp
part no. G961<= br>is three carbide router bits with 1/8 " shanks for $2.  I= 've bought
these in the past and they have very good finishes and the sh= anks are
about 1/2 inch long.

If you're in good graces with your dentist,= ask him for used dental
drills (actually minature router bits.) &n= bsp;However be aware that these may
only be carbide brazed to HS steel s= hanks (like the ones I got.)  But I
guess that some may be carbide all the way.  I'd be intereste= d if your
results vary!

Look at part no. 8788A124
from McMaste= r Carr  1 1/2 in. long by 1/8 in dia. carbide drill blanks.
$1= ..95 ea.  Many other lengths and dia. available.
http://www.mcmaster.com/
Regards,
Charles Patton



Subject: More pictures on the web of potential useful parts for the crossed rod hinge suspension From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 13:23:18 -0600 Hi all, Have put up acouple more "sampler" pictures with the "CRHS" (crossed rod hinge suspension); where it directly relates to the potential use of the common shaft coupler, for its use as a center rod "junction" with the boom/mass, and, their potential use for postional "stops" on the outer two rods. Its a simple approach, that I think anyone could consider and actually build. Yes....there is a world of other mechanical approaches likely floating around that can work also. See: http://home.earthlink.net/~meredithlamb/crossed-rod-hinge-suspension.html Take care, Meredith Lamb
Hi all,
 
Have put up acouple more "sampler" pictures with the "C= RHS" (crossed rod hinge
suspension); where it directly relates to the potential use of the com= mon shaft
coupler, for its use as a center rod "junction" with the boo= m/mass, and, their
potential use for postional "stops" on the outer two rods.&n= bsp; Its a simple approach,
that I think anyone could consider and actually build.  Yes....th= ere is a world of
other mechanical approaches likely floating around that can work also.=   See:
 
 
Take care, Meredith Lamb
 
 
Subject: The Zero Torque Suspension From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2005 14:28:56 -0600 Hi all, While I personally think the Crossed Rod Hinge Suspension, can be acquainted with "moms apple pie"....ha....the zero torque suspension *is *a lower friction device that has seen abit more time and effort devoted to it in the very recent past. It can also be called a "figure of eight" hinge/suspension. Suspect its mai= n use will likely only be for S-G's, or a vertical hanging mass/pendulum for directional horizontal movement sensing seismometers. It is abit more complicated to build; but not beyond the capability of most of us with common hand tools. Chris Chapman and I have mulled over ways and means of its setup; and for the present, the following URL is a roughly fair (progressive time span), o= f its initial variations of setups through to the most recent mechanical proposals. http://home.earthlink.net/~meredithlamb/zero-torque-suspension.html Take care, Meredith
Hi all,
 
While I personally think the Crossed Rod Hinge Suspension, can be acqu= ainted
with "moms apple pie"....ha....the zero torque suspensi= on is a lower friction
device that has seen abit more time and effort devoted to it in the ve= ry recent past.
It can also be called a "figure of eight" hinge/suspension.&= nbsp; Suspect its main use
will likely only be for S-G's, or a vertical hanging mass/pendulum for= directional
horizontal movement sensing seismometers.  It is abit more compli= cated to
build; but not beyond the capability of most of us with common hand to= ols.
 
Chris Chapman and I have mulled over ways and means of its setup; and = for
the present, the following URL is a roughly fair (progressive time spa= n), of its
initial variations of setups through to the most recent mechanical pro= posals.
 
 
Take care, Meredith
 
Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions From: Brett Nordgren Brett3kg@............. Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 10:37:29 -0400 Hi, It was interesting to hear about some real-world testing of the zero-force/zero-moment hinge design. A few years ago I did some analysis of its geometry aimed at seeing how well it simulated a pivot about a single point, i.e. how well the end of a pendulum using that hinge would track a true circle, and where was the center? At the time I was looking at using the design in a leaf-spring horizontal. See: http://bnordgren.org/seismo/zerohng2.pdf Although, when I worked on it, I knew the design had been around before, at the time I wasn't aware of how long and how widely it had been in use. Rather than trying to do a mathematical analysis, I used a CAD program to draw the pendulum in various positions and tried to see how well the locus of the pendulum endpoints would fit a circle. For the test, I assumed pivot rods of 1-inch diameter with a pendulum only 5-inches long, measured from the center of the "lower" pivot rod. Even for that extreme case the pendulum tip tracked a circle within 0.00025" [0.0063mm] over the range of +/- 5 degrees of swing. There had been some discussion about where the center of the arc would be. From what I could see, the effective center of the arc was very near the crossing point of the support flexures/wires. Regards, Brett At 12:21 AM 10/24/2005 +0000, you wrote: >Meredith Lamb, >Could you post pictures of the rod hinge/suspensions "your setup" >This sounds like somthing I would like to try. >Thanks Bryan Goss > > > >From: meredith lamb >To: psn-l@.............. >Subject: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions >Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2005 20:54:01 +0000 >Content-Type: Multipart/alternative; > boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_2531_1130113284_1" > >Hi all, > >Chris Chapman recently stated in a private email that he thought a crossed >rod hinge >suspension would have less friction/dampening than a ball bearing >hinge...and he is >so very right! > Take care, Meredith Lamb __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions From: Brett Nordgren Brett3kg@............. Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 11:58:08 -0400 More results: Originally I was looking at the geometry of a leaf spring vertical (not horizontal) having a "pendulum" that was essentially horizontal. Today I took a quick look at the geometry of a vertical pedulum, i.e. one suitable for a horizontal instrument, the configuration currently being discussed. The results using my CAD program were similar, in that the tip of the pendulum traced a circle with very little error. However the center of that circle was no longer near the crossing point of the flexures, but was located within the upper pivot rod, about 1/3 of its diameter down from its axis. More analysis obviously needed. Brett At 02:53 PM 10/23/2005 -0600, you wrote: >Hi all, > >Chris Chapman recently stated in a private email that he thought a crossed >rod hinge >suspension would have less friction/dampening than a ball bearing >hinge...and he is >so very right! > >Take care, Meredith Lamb > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Crossed wire suspensions - more analysis From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2005 18:07:56 EDT In a message dated 25/10/05, Brett3kg@............. writes: > http://bnordgren.org/seismo/zerohng2.pdf > Hi Brett, Two quick comments on foil / wire suspensions: In the case of the 'traditional crossed foil hinge', since the lengths of the foils stays constant, the sum of the two triangles on any one side of the hinge axis also stays constant. This is exactly the relationship which gives the crossing point the form of an ellipse with the two top corners as the foci - also the two bottom corners. This assumes that the foils are completely flexible and in therein lies the only problem with this hinge. You are bending the foil by very significant amounts very close to the end fixtures and this can give a high stress level and internal frictional losses - no material is completely, instantaneously flexible. Since both angles on the left hand side increase more rapidly than those on the right hand side - or vice versa - there will be SOME net hinge force opposing rotation. In the case of the rolling foil / wire hinge, the lengths between contact points stay constant and the lengths to the crossing point stay constant. The physical foil / wire crossing point can therefore only move in a circle around the top rod. The end contact points of the foil now lie on a circle the diameter of the suspension rods, so there are much lower bending stresses and the bend radius can be made large, minimising internal frictional losses. Since the bend angle stays constant on both sides, there will be NO net hinge force opposing rotation - hence it is a Zero Torque Suspension (assuming that the wire / foil dimensions on both sides are equal). Defining the centre of rotation can be thought of by considering two fixed pulleys some distance apart with a figure of 8 belt around them. With equal pulley diameters, they rotate in opposite directions by the same angle. Taking lines projected from the centres of the two pulleys, initially going through both axles, the lines will always cross on the line which is at right angles to the centre of the line joining the axles, giving a cosine 1/2 deflection angle variation. This explains why the changes you calculated were so small. You can make rolling suspensions with strips of foil as well as with wires. The nickel coated 8 thou piano wire was an obvious 'first choice' to try out, partly since it is so readily available. You can buy hard drawn Nichrome fine wire as well as rolled wire tape (as used in your electric toaster). It has about half the ultimate strength of piano wire, but it is very corrosion resistant. Other foils are available. See www.smallparts.com and www.ksmetals.com You may be able to get bronze shim foil from a metal stockist. A rather thick bronze strip is sold for draft excluder on doors. Sean Morrissey tried out narrow strips of this as a seismometer suspension. Niobium foil is used on the gravitational wave detection experiments and it has a very good reputation as a hinge material, but I don't know where they get it from. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 25/10/05, Brett3kg@............. writes:

http://bnordgren.org/seismo= /zerohng2.pdf

Hi Brett,

      Two quick comments on foil / wire s= uspensions:

      In the case of the 'traditional cro= ssed foil hinge', since the lengths of the foils stays constant, the sum of=20= the two triangles on any one side of the hinge axis also stays constant. Thi= s is exactly the relationship which gives the crossing point the form of an=20= ellipse with the two top corners as the foci - also the two bottom corners.=20= This assumes that the foils are completely flexible and in therein lies the=20= only problem with this hinge. You are bending the foil by very significant a= mounts very close to the end fixtures and this can give a high stress level=20= and internal frictional losses - no material is completely, instantaneously=20= flexible. Since both angles on the left hand side increase more rapidly than= those on the right hand side - or vice versa - there will be SOME net hi= nge force opposing rotation.=20

      In the case of the rolling foil / w= ire hinge, the lengths between contact points stay constant and the lengths=20= to the crossing point stay constant. The physical foil / wire crossing point= can therefore only move in a circle around the top rod. The end contact poi= nts of the foil now lie on a circle the diameter of the suspension rods, so=20= there are much lower bending stresses and the bend radius can be made large,= minimising internal frictional losses. Since the bend angle stays constant=20= on both sides, there will be NO net hinge force opposing rotation - h= ence it is a Zero Torque Suspension (assuming that the wire / foil dimension= s on both sides are equal).

      Defining the centre of rotation can= be thought of by considering two fixed pulleys some distance apart with a f= igure of 8 belt around them. With equal pulley diameters, they rotate in opp= osite directions by the same angle. Taking lines projected from the centres=20= of the two pulleys, initially going through both axles, the lines will alway= s cross on the line which is at right angles to the centre of the line joini= ng the axles, giving a cosine 1/2 deflection angle variation. This explains=20= why the changes you calculated were so small.=20

      You can make rolling suspensions wi= th strips of foil as well as with wires. The nickel coated 8 thou piano wire= was an obvious 'first choice' to try out, partly since it is so readily ava= ilable. You can buy hard drawn Nichrome fine wire as well as rolled wire tap= e (as used in your electric toaster). It has about half the ultimate strengt= h of piano wire, but it is very corrosion resistant. Other foils are availab= le. See www.smallparts.com and www.ksmetals.com You may be able to get bronz= e shim foil from a metal stockist. A rather thick bronze strip is sold for d= raft excluder on doors. Sean Morrissey tried out narrow strips of this as a=20= seismometer suspension. Niobium foil is used on the gravitational wave detec= tion experiments and it has a very good reputation as a hinge material, but=20= I don't know where they get it from.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions From: "KATHRYN ROBERTS" KROBERTS23@............... Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 13:57:16 -0400 Hi, i am the one who proposed the double shim hinge for a horizonal = sesimometer. However the string method would seem to have less = torsional resistance than the double vertigal shim. Will the = string/filamentsupport the horizontal pendulum 'boom' ? (or will boom = weight allow the vertical vector)gravity allow the boom to dop far = enough to significantly the angle the once horivontal string/filament = enough to increase the angle of the mast end of the pendulum and affect = it's torque? i don't know if increasing the angle will adversely = effect/increase the torque needed to allow easy horizontal motion to the = pendulum or if the arrangement will decrease the needed torque forces to = swing the pendulum. i feel the wire/string/filament will increase the = needed torque to move the pendulum, but this a gut level (no pun = intended) and my track record of being about right about such feelings = run less that 50%. i know my written descriptions are = cryptic at best and probably enigatic at best. i have no way to scan = drawings or post pictures on the net. If someone would send me a snail = mail address and would be willing to scan my hand drawn plans (i did = take mechanical drawing at school in the middle of the last century) and = i would happy send my hand drawn to that person. As a way of = introduction, i am a general practiticaner and my name shoud be in the = 'phone book as 'geoffrey roberts, DO. i'm in Crystal River, FL My work = number is 352-795-2283 or 352-795-5544 or 795-2664, which will be an answering mach. Just leave a number and i'll = return your call. some will answer dr's office or 'may i help you? i mention my only job = to attempt to people at ease about giving me their address. Hopefully = someone will have a post office box that would help perserve their = idenity. <> i am enjoying this post. But i'm fairly busy and = don't have time to build and test each different seisomos. Because of = the time factor i have decided to start with horizontal pendulums. = Thanks for listening. geoffrey roberts, 1035 N Stoney Point <> Crystal = River Fl <> USA. If you're still concerned, you take my 16 and 14 year = old boys as a hostage. i do think you should O'Henry's short story = entitled "The Ransom of red Chief." before you agree to these = conditions. Thank you, Dr. geoffrey roberts, Crystal River 34429 P.S., = After this e-mail, please forget that i'm a doctor and send messages to = 'just geoff.' gr ---- Original Message ----- =20 From: ChrisAtUpw@.......... To: psn-l@................. Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 11:19 PM Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings = hinge/suspensions In a message dated 24/10/05, 1goss@........... writes:=20 Meredith Lamb,=20 Could you post pictures of the rod hinge/suspensions "your setup"=20 This sounds like somthing I would like to try. Hi Bryan,=20 You can get 1/8" tungsten carbide drills (ordinary type) from = www.smallparts.com for $4.20 each. The one that I have is about 2 1/4" = long and half of that is usable shank.=20 I buy the printed circuit board tungsten carbide drills with an = 1/8" shank for a bit under $4.50. I have searched several US websites = for these, but the only one that I found was digikey and they wanted = $7.55 each! The overall length is 1.5" and the shank is 0.9" long.=20 You can also buy carbide spotting drills, center drills and = various router and milling bits, but these are all likely to be more = expensive.=20 You can also try out round 'tool steel', but I would advise = putting a drop of clock oil on the contact point and a paper dust screen = around it. The oil has an 'extreme pressure' additive, which prevents = metal to metal contact. Steel rolling on steel can give rust / corrosion = on the contact point otherwise. Stainless steels are only 'stainless' = because they oxidise very readily, giving a protective surface film. = They don't like chlorides, bromides, iodides or fluorides - and this = includes common salt and perspiration.=20 On a Lehman, I mounted the vertical carbide rod on the support = column and the mating horizontal on the end of the beam. If you do it = the other way around, you may well have to completely reset the centring = and period every time you reassemble / adjust the suspension. I have the = mass offset mounted on the beam with the C of G underneath, to provide = vertical stability and keep the end bearing rod horizontal. Jan Marshall = uses this type of suspension See http://myweb.cableone.net/jandmarshall/ = The wire figure of 8 suspensions that I have tried were made = from 8 thou dia nickel plated mandolin strings, bought from a music = shop. These are piano wire, but are reasonably rust resistant. See = http://www.daddario.com/ The 8 thou piano wire has an 'ultimate = strength' of about 16.5 lbs max. The design working stress might be from = 1/4 down to 1/20 of this, depending on the application. They are a bit = more difficult to set up and adjust than a crossed cylinder and you can = only bend the wire once.=20 Meredith has tried novel forms of these out with considerable = success. My congratulations to him on his patience, dedication and = skill!=20 My ball on a flat suspensions were 5mm stainless steel balls on = a small diamond polished triangular carbide tool bits for a lathe. I = mounted the ball on the vertical support and the flat on the arm, again = to fix the centre of rotation. I was fairly happy with the performance, = since it seemed quite a bit better than a flex foil that I had been = using. I note that www.smallparts.com do sell tungsten carbide balls. I = haven't tried these, but I would expect them to perform as well as the = stainless steel balls. =20 Meredith also tried out cleaned up BIC medium ball pen tips. = These use 1 mm dia carbide balls nicely mounted in a brass holder, but = they are not really suitable for heavy loads. Meredith seemed quite = enthusiastic about these till the tried out the figure of 8 wire and the = crossed cylinder suspensions! =20 Regards,=20 Chris Chapman=20
Hi, i am the one who proposed the = double shim hinge=20 for a horizonal sesimometer.  However the string method would seem = to have=20 less torsional resistance than the double vertigal shim.  Will = the=20 string/filamentsupport the horizontal pendulum 'boom' ? (or will boom = weight=20 allow the vertical vector)gravity allow the boom to dop far enough to=20 significantly the angle the once horivontal string/filament enough to = increase=20 the angle of the mast end of the pendulum and affect it's torque? i = don't know=20 if increasing the angle will adversely effect/increase the torque needed = to allow easy horizontal motion to the pendulum or if the = arrangement will=20 decrease the needed torque forces to swing the pendulum. i feel the=20 wire/string/filament will increase the needed torque to move the = pendulum, but=20 this a gut level (no pun intended) and my track record of = being about=20 right about such feelings run less that 50%.   =20             i know = my written=20 descriptions are cryptic at best and probably  enigatic at best. i = have no=20 way to scan drawings or post pictures on the net. If someone would send = me a=20 snail mail address and would be willing to scan my hand drawn plans (i = did=20 take mechanical drawing at school in the middle of the last = century) and i=20 would happy send my hand drawn to that person. As a way of introduction, = i am a=20 general practiticaner   and my name shoud be in the 'phone = book as=20 'geoffrey roberts, DO. i'm in Crystal River, FL   My work = number is=20 352-795-2283 or 352-795-5544 or
795-2664, which will be an answering = mach. Just=20 leave a number and i'll return your call.
some will answer dr's office or 'may i = help you? i=20 mention my only job to attempt to people at ease about giving me = their=20 address. Hopefully someone will have a post office box that=20 would  help perserve their idenity.   =20 <>     i am enjoying this post. But i'm = fairly=20 busy  and don't have time to build and test  = each different=20 seisomos. Because of the time factor i have decided to start with = horizontal=20 pendulums. Thanks for listening. geoffrey roberts, 1035 N Stoney = Point =20 <>  Crystal River Fl   <> USA. If you're = still=20 concerned, you take my 16 and 14 year old boys  as a hostage. i do = think=20 you should O'Henry's short story entitled "The Ransom of red = Chief." before=20 you agree to these conditions.  Thank you, Dr. geoffrey roberts, = Crystal=20 River 34429 P.S.,   After this e-mail, please forget that i'm = a doctor=20 and send messages to 'just geoff.' gr
 ---- Original Message=20 = -----           &n= bsp;=20            
From:=20 ChrisAtUpw@.......
Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 = 11:19=20 PM
Subject: Re: Crossed rod=20 hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions

In=20 a message dated 24/10/05, 1goss@........... writes: =

Meredith Lamb,
Could you post pictures of the rod=20 hinge/suspensions "your setup"
This sounds like somthing I would = like to=20 try.


Hi Bryan,=20

      You can get 1/8" tungsten = carbide=20 drills (ordinary type) from www.smallparts.com for $4.20 = each. The=20 one that I have is about 2 1/4" long and half of that is usable shank. =
      I buy the printed circuit = board=20 tungsten carbide drills with an 1/8" shank for a bit under $4.50. I = have=20 searched several US websites for these, but the only one that I found = was=20 digikey and they wanted $7.55 each! The overall length is 1.5" and the = shank=20 is 0.9" long.
      You can also buy = carbide=20 spotting drills, center drills and various router and milling bits, = but these=20 are all likely to be more expensive.=20
      You can also try out round = 'tool=20 steel', but I would advise putting a drop of clock oil on the contact = point=20 and a paper dust screen around it. The oil has an 'extreme pressure' = additive,=20 which prevents metal to metal contact. Steel rolling on steel can give = rust /=20 corrosion on the contact point otherwise. Stainless steels are only=20 'stainless' because they oxidise very readily, giving a protective = surface=20 film. They don't like chlorides, bromides, iodides or fluorides - and = this=20 includes common salt and perspiration.=20
      On a Lehman, I mounted the = vertical=20 carbide rod on the support column and the mating horizontal on the end = of the=20 beam. If you do it the other way around, you may well have to = completely reset=20 the centring and period every time you reassemble / adjust the = suspension. I=20 have the mass offset mounted on the beam with the C of G underneath, = to=20 provide vertical stability and keep the end bearing rod horizontal. = Jan=20 Marshall uses this type of suspension See=20 http://myweb.cableone.net/jandmarshall/=20
      The wire figure of 8 = suspensions that=20 I have tried were made from 8 thou dia nickel plated mandolin strings, = bought=20 from a music shop. These are piano wire, but are reasonably rust = resistant.=20 See http://www.daddario.com/ The 8 thou piano wire has an 'ultimate = strength'=20 of about 16.5 lbs max. The design working stress might be from 1/4 = down to=20 1/20 of this, depending on the application. They are a bit more = difficult to=20 set up and adjust than a crossed cylinder and you can only bend the = wire once.=20
      Meredith has tried novel forms = of=20 these out with considerable success. My congratulations to him on his=20 patience, dedication and skill! =

      My=20 ball on a flat suspensions were 5mm stainless steel balls on a small = diamond=20 polished triangular carbide tool bits for a lathe. I mounted the ball = on the=20 vertical support and the flat on the arm, again to fix the centre of = rotation.=20 I was fairly happy with the performance, since it seemed quite a bit = better=20 than a flex foil that I had been using. I note that www.smallparts.com = do sell=20 tungsten carbide balls. I haven't tried these, but I would expect them = to=20 perform as well as the stainless steel balls.   =20
      Meredith also tried out = cleaned up BIC=20 medium ball pen tips. These use 1 mm dia carbide balls nicely mounted = in a=20 brass holder, but they are not really suitable for heavy loads. = Meredith=20 seemed quite enthusiastic about these till the tried out the figure of = 8 wire=20 and the crossed cylinder suspensions!   =20

      Regards,=20

      Chris Chapman=20


Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions v/s ball bearings hinge/suspensions From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:29:01 EDT In a message dated 26/10/05, KROBERTS23@............... writes: > Hi, I am the one who proposed the double shim hinge for a horizontal > seismometer. However the string method would seem to have less torsional resistance > than the double vertical shim. Will the string / filament support the > horizontal pendulum 'boom'? (or will boom weight allow the vertical vector) gravity > allow the boom to drop far enough to significantly the angle the once > horizontal string / filament enough to increase the angle of the mast end of the > pendulum and affect it's torque? I don't know if increasing the angle will > adversely effect / increase the torque needed to allow easy horizontal motion to > the pendulum or if the arrangement will decrease the needed torque forces to > swing the pendulum. I feel the wire / string / filament will increase the > needed torque to move the pendulum, Hi Geoffrey, If you make the suspension with a wire around circular rods, the bending forces exactly balance and stay constant as the suspension rotates. This is not true of 90 deg crossed foil / wire hinges which have the ends of the foil / wire clamped. The 'traditional' crossed foil hinges will take an appreciable end load, but as you mention, crossed wires may sag a bit, depending on the vertical load on the hinge end of the boom. The easy way around this problem is to connect the top hinge onto the end of the boom with a light tube to maintain the separation and the alignment of both, but have the top wire loop set at an angle to the horizontal to take the vertical load. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 26/10/05, KROBERTS23@............... writes:

Hi, I am the one who propos= ed the double shim hinge for a horizontal seismometer. However the string me= thod would seem to have less torsional resistance than the double vertical s= him. Will the string / filament support the horizontal pendulum 'boom'? (or=20= will boom weight allow the vertical vector) gravity allow the boom to drop f= ar enough to significantly the angle the once horizontal string / filament e= nough to increase the angle of the mast end of the pendulum and affect it's=20= torque? I don't know if increasing the angle will adversely effect / increas= e the torque needed to allow easy horizontal motion to the pendulum or if th= e arrangement will decrease the needed torque forces to swing the pendulum.=20= I feel the wire / string / filament will increase the needed torque to move=20= the pendulum,


Hi Geoffrey,

      If you make the suspension with a w= ire around circular rods, the bending forces exactly balance and stay consta= nt as the suspension rotates. This is not true of 90 deg crossed foil / wire= hinges which have the ends of the foil / wire clamped.=20
      The 'traditional' crossed foil hing= es will take an appreciable end load, but as you mention, crossed wires may=20= sag a bit, depending on the vertical load on the hinge end of the boom. The=20= easy way around this problem is to connect the top hinge onto the end of the= boom with a light tube to maintain the separation and the alignment of both= , but have the top wire loop set at an angle to the horizontal to take the v= ertical load.

   Regards,

   Chris Chapman

Subject: Galitzin-type seismometer From: Rick Groleau rgroleau@....... Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 20:47:21 -0400 For anyone who's interested, I've just put together a page of my system, which is centered around a Galitzin-type seismometer that I built in a metals-tech class about 15 years ago. Includes pictures, schematics, and the story of how I built the system... http://users.rcn.com/rgroleau/seismo/index.html Judging by the messages I've been reading on this list, my setup is very basic, and there's lots that I have to learn. For example, I still haven't connected it to a computer. Rick Groleau __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Galitzin-type seismometer From: John Popelish jpopelish@........ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:37:23 -0400 Rick Groleau wrote: > For anyone who's interested, I've just put together a page of my system, > which is centered around a Galitzin-type seismometer that I built in a > metals-tech class about 15 years ago. Includes pictures, schematics, and > the story of how I built the system... > > http://users.rcn.com/rgroleau/seismo/index.html > > Judging by the messages I've been reading on this list, my setup is very > basic, and there's lots that I have to learn. For example, I still > haven't connected it to a computer. Mechanically, the design looks very nice. Electronically, it is pretty primitive and simple upgrades could improve it significantly. The coil is unshielded, and the amplifier has no filter function included to reject either 60 cycle hum or other mechanical noise that isn't part of the seismic signal. Still it does pretty well with what it's got. Are you interested in changing anything at this point? __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Digest from 10/26/2005 00:00:48 From: Rick Groleau rgroleau@....... Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 22:45:37 -0400 Thanks for the comments, John. And yes, I wouldn't mind replacing the amplifier with something more up-to-date, and with connecting the system to my computer (which may be difficult, since I use a Mac). Any suggestions? rick psn-l-digest-request@.............. wrote: > Subject: Re: Galitzin-type seismometer > From: John Popelish > Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2005 21:37:23 -0400 > > Rick Groleau wrote: > >>For anyone who's interested, I've just put together a page of my system, >>which is centered around a Galitzin-type seismometer that I built in a >>metals-tech class about 15 years ago. Includes pictures, schematics, and >>the story of how I built the system... >> >> http://users.rcn.com/rgroleau/seismo/index.html >> >>Judging by the messages I've been reading on this list, my setup is very >>basic, and there's lots that I have to learn. For example, I still >>haven't connected it to a computer. > > > Mechanically, the design looks very nice. Electronically, it is > pretty primitive and simple upgrades could improve it significantly. > > The coil is unshielded, and the amplifier has no filter function > included to reject either 60 cycle hum or other mechanical noise that > isn't part of the seismic signal. Still it does pretty well with what > it's got. > > Are you interested in changing anything at this point? > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-DIGEST-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Galitzin-type seismometer From: Richard Gagnon richg_1998@......... Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2005 04:58:14 -0700 (PDT) This is a preamp I use. http://users.viawest.net/~aloomis/seisfilt.htm It can drive my Dataq 194 http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/di194rs.htm or PSN A/D http://seismicnet.com/serialatod.html This guy has a lot of usefull information. http://www.infiltec.com/seismo/index.htm#top Just in case you did not know about these sites. I do not know about driving a MAC. Try searching the Net for answers. Trying to figure out how to ask the question might be the hardest part. I did a quick few searches but I am not sure what would apply to you. Richard Richard __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Crossed rod hinge/suspension...a obvious method for setting the directional rotating hinge/boom/mass "zero" placement. From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 13:02:30 -0600 Hi all, With a crossed rod hinge/suspension, one can easily set the rotating rods placement on the lengths of the two outer rods by using acouple shaft collars on them= , that are adjusted/moved/placed as desired in relation to the sensors used below near the mass. This is being written in the sense of a S-G, or vertical hanging mass= ; but the approach is also quite applicable for a vertical or a "hanging gate" (Lehman) horizontal seismometer. As this type of suspension will physically rotate or move in the directions of desired sensing, it only remains for the bottom of the pendulum mass to be manually offset, say, ~1" from its desired resting spot/zero; while shoving and then gently releasing the upper portion of the pendulum hinge against the shaft collars= . When you gently manually allow the mass end of pendulum to go back to zero (gravity), or whatever zero spot, it will rotate slightly away from the shaft collars, and thus it will be at a set operating position, and can then freely rotate. One can use about any distance desired, but, irregardless; for a normal operating environment= , about any reasonable distance amount will be far more than what the response of the pendulum/mass would normally be for any seismic event. The installed shaft collar will have to be placed on the appropriate side of the center rod/boom/mass to allow this to work of course. For a more consistent "zero" placement, on= e could entertain having a spaced and anchored contact angle bracket down nea= r the mass for this offset zero adjustment. One would have to be aware that this resulting spacing won't be very much; so one will have to watch our for interferring dirt/hair etc., that could get inbetween the shaft collars and the rotating hinge/rod/pendulum/mass, and degrade its enertia response. A crossed rod hinge suspension will also have a lateral (non-rotating, sideways) position to be aware of. Normally the position won't change once set on the two outer rods. One could also a shaft collar/s "near too, but not touching", one or both of the two outer rods; or another mechanical variety of visual alignment near to one end of the center rod. Here; one might entertain the use of a thin temporary shim spacer inbetween one shaft collar and one of the two outer rods; for the initial adjustment and withdraw the shim spacer before any adjustment of the "zero" as described above. Going abit further, one could place two more shaft collars on the two outer rods, for temporary "locking" of the hinge pivot, during the moving and eventual placement setup of such seismometer. Take care, Meredith Lamb Hi all,

With a crossed rod hinge/suspension, one can easily set the rotating rods p= lacement
on the lengths of the two outer rods by using acouple shaft collars on them= , that are
adjusted/moved/placed as desired in relation to the sensors used below near= the
mass.  This is being written in the sense of a S-G, or vertical hangin= g mass; but the
approach is also quite applicable for a vertical or a "hanging gate&qu= ot; (Lehman)
horizontal seismometer.

As this type of suspension will physically rotate or move in the directions= of desired
sensing, it only remains for the bottom of the pendulum mass to be manually=
offset, say, ~1" from its desired resting spot/zero; while shoving and= then gently
releasing the upper portion of the pendulum hinge against the shaft collars= ..  When
you gently manually allow the mass end of pendulum to go back to zero (grav= ity),
or whatever zero spot, it will rotate slightly away from the shaft collars,= and thus
it will be at a set operating position, and can then freely rotate.  O= ne can use about
any distance desired, but, irregardless; for a normal operating environment= , about
any reasonable distance amount will be far more than what the response of t= he
pendulum/mass would normally be for any seismic event.  The installed = shaft
collar will have to be placed on the appropriate side of the center rod/boo= m/mass
to allow this to work of course.  For a more consistent "zero&quo= t; placement, one
could entertain having a spaced and anchored contact angle bracket down nea= r
the mass for this offset zero adjustment.

One would have to be aware that this resulting spacing won't be very much; = so
one will have to watch our for interferring dirt/hair etc., that could get = inbetween
the shaft collars and the rotating hinge/rod/pendulum/mass, and degrade its=
enertia response.

A crossed rod hinge suspension will also have a lateral (non-rotating, side= ways)
position to be aware of.  Normally the position won't change once set = on the two
outer rods.  One could also a shaft collar/s "near too, but not t= ouching", one or
both of the two outer rods; or another mechanical variety of visual alignme= nt near
to one end of the center rod.  Here; one might entertain the use of a = thin
temporary shim spacer inbetween one shaft collar and one of the two outer rods; for the initial adjustment and withdraw the shim spacer before any adjustment of the "zero" as described above.  Going abit fur= ther, one could
place two more shaft collars on the two outer rods, for temporary "loc= king" of
the hinge pivot, during the moving and eventual placement setup of such
seismometer.

Take care, Meredith Lamb


Subject: Crossed rod hinges/suspensions...with two bolts extended from a square rod. From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:20:58 -0700 Hi all, Yesterday, I tried the simplest hinge (the two outer rod support/contacts) configuration using the most commonly available material I could think of. Its simply acouple of bolts of a common 2.5" length, with 1/4" diameter, where only part of the length (.750") is threaded, and the rest of the length is of a round rod out to the hex shaped bolt head. The threaded end is inserted or screwed into a piece of square metal rod. This leaves the smooth round exposed rod and of course the bolt head extended outward with no bolt head support. I used a rusty rectangular block of stee= l that already had two separated threaded holes, that matched the thread of the tw= o bolts for this test. They were firmly screwed into the steel to where the thread ends. Another way of visualizing such, is to imagine a coat hangar on a wall with its base frame...but with only two extending rods/shafts thereon. The only bolt surface smoothing action I took was to mount the bolts in a drill press chuck, and sand the round bolt surfaces with a 400 grit strip of sandpaper for acouple minutes each. For this test, the two rod hinge is orientated so it was for a S-G; or a hanging pendulum. The actual crossed rod/hinge/boom/mass remained the same as in th= e past tests, with its 1/4" diameter stainless steel rod just laying across the two outer rods/bolts here. The test pendulum/mass offset here was reduced from 2" to just a 1/4" offset and allowed to oscillate till it visually quit moving as a test of the friction/s involved. It visually oscillated 5 hours and 35 minutes, which was actually alot longer than I anticipated it would. This test result suggests that common bolt material can be adequately sufficient; and would of course allow for replacing such with better material later, if one so wishes to do so. *** A good example of the "smooth" surface of a rod/s for a hinge, can be noted in this example. I used acouple common grade steel .1375" diameter rods, that "appeared" to be visually smooth, but with a likely coating of zinc or chrome plating thereon. I set the cross rod/boom/mass (.25" diameter rod= ) thereon, and it oscillated less than 4 hours with a 1/4" mass deflection. I then smoothed them in a rotating drill press chuck for acouple minutes with a strip of 400 grit sandpaper. The same rods then were tested; and they then allowed the cross rod to oscillate for 5 hours and 39 minutes. Finer grits would decrease the friction further. The sanding removed portions of the zinc/chrome coating/plateing on the rod...its color went to a more natural grayish/blac= k steel. Actually, the test was a double test; to see what two smaller diameter outer rods would do with a larger cross diameter rod...it didn't seem to make any noteworthy difference over using 1/4" diameter rods, as in the above result. The two bolt assembly could also be orientated to where its usefull for other seismometer hinges. For example, with the square metal rod flat on a horizontal (to gravity) surface, and orientated to where the bolts are coming out a side; you have a S-G (vertical hanging pendulum) hinge. With the bolt= s pointing upward (or downward), and the longest square rod length is horizontally placed against the imagined mast, you have a vertical hinge. With the square metal rod length upright, and the bolts coming out the side view/s (either left or right), you have a horizontal hinge. Most of what remains t= o do, is to drill the square metal rod to where you can attach such to either the mast side, or the top of the mast for the seismometer type you want. With a drill press, mounted drill press table vice, and with sawed off square rods, one could make quite a variety of lengths, or spaces inbetween the tw= o supported rods/bolts as desired. There is all kinds of more complicated way= s to make other similar two rod/bolt holding mechanisms around; but this has to be the simplest. There is one limitation I'd consider, and that is to only use like 1/4" diameter rods/bolts or greater diameter, as the weight/pressure on them, may make lesser diameter bolts/rods bend or deflect abit, where the ends (bolt heads) of such is not frame supported. Take care, Meredith Lamb Hi all,

Yesterday, I tried the simplest hinge (the two outer rod support/contacts) = configuration
using the most commonly available material I could think of.  Its simp= ly acouple of bolts
of a common 2.5" length, with 1/4" diameter, where only part of t= he length (.750")
is threaded, and the rest of the length is of a round rod out to the hex sh= aped bolt
head.  The threaded end is inserted or screwed into a piece of square = metal rod.
This leaves the smooth round exposed rod and of course the bolt head extend= ed
outward with no bolt head support.  I used a rusty rectangular block o= f steel that
already had two separated threaded holes, that matched the thread of the tw= o bolts
for this test.  They were firmly screwed into the steel to where the t= hread ends.
Another way of visualizing such, is to imagine a coat hangar on a wall with= its
base frame...but with only two extending rods/shafts thereon.  The onl= y bolt surface
smoothing action I took was to mount the bolts in a drill press chuck, and = sand
the round bolt surfaces with a 400 grit strip of sandpaper for acouple minu= tes each.

For this test, the two rod hinge is orientated so it was for a S-G; or a ha= nging
pendulum.  The actual crossed rod/hinge/boom/mass remained the same as= in the
past tests, with its 1/4" diameter stainless steel rod just laying acr= oss the two
outer rods/bolts here.  The test pendulum/mass offset here was reduced= from 2"
to just a 1/4" offset and allowed to oscillate till it visually quit m= oving as a test
of the friction/s involved.  It visually oscillated 5 hours and 35 min= utes, which
was actually alot longer than I anticipated it would.  This test resul= t suggests
that common bolt material can be adequately sufficient; and would of course=
allow for replacing such with better material later, if one so wishes to do= so.

*** A good example of the "smooth" surface of a rod/s for a hinge= , can be
noted in this example.  I used acouple common grade steel .1375" = diameter
rods, that "appeared" to be visually smooth, but with a likely co= ating of zinc
or chrome plating thereon.  I set the cross rod/boom/mass (.25" d= iameter rod)
thereon, and it oscillated less than 4 hours with a 1/4" mass deflecti= on.  I then
smoothed them in a rotating drill press chuck for acouple minutes with a st= rip
of 400 grit sandpaper.  The same rods then were tested; and they then<= br> allowed the cross rod to oscillate for 5 hours and 39 minutes.  Finer = grits would
decrease the friction further.  The sanding removed portions of the zi= nc/chrome
coating/plateing on the rod...its color went to a more natural grayish/blac= k
steel.  Actually, the test was a double test; to see what two smaller = diameter
outer rods would do with a larger cross diameter rod...it didn't seem to ma= ke
any noteworthy difference over using 1/4" diameter rods, as in the abo= ve result.

The two bolt assembly could also be orientated to where its usefull for oth= er
seismometer hinges.  For example, with the square metal rod flat on a =
horizontal (to gravity) surface, and orientated to where the bolts are comi= ng
out a side; you have a S-G (vertical hanging pendulum) hinge.  With th= e bolts
pointing upward (or downward), and the longest square rod length is
horizontally placed against the imagined mast, you have a vertical hinge.&n= bsp; With
the square metal rod length upright, and the bolts coming out the side view= /s
(either left or right), you have a horizontal hinge.  Most of what rem= ains to do,
is to drill the square metal rod to where you can attach such to either the= mast
side, or the top of the mast for the seismometer type you want.

With a drill press, mounted drill press table vice, and with sawed off squa= re
rods, one could make quite a variety of lengths, or spaces inbetween the tw= o
supported rods/bolts as desired.  There is all kinds of more complicat= ed ways
to make other similar two rod/bolt holding mechanisms around; but this has<= br> to be the simplest.  There is one limitation I'd consider, and that is= to only
use like 1/4" diameter rods/bolts or greater diameter, as the weight/p= ressure
on them, may make lesser diameter bolts/rods bend or deflect abit, where the ends (bolt heads) of such is not frame supported.

Take care, Meredith Lamb


Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinges/suspensions...with two bolts extended from a square rod. From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 15:53:24 EST In a message dated 30/10/05, paleoartifact@......... writes: > Yesterday, I tried the simplest hinge (the two outer rod support/contacts) > configuration using the most commonly available material I could think of. > Its simply acouple of bolts of a common 2.5" length, with 1/4" diameter, where > only part of the length (.750") is threaded, and the rest of the length is > of a round rod out to the hex shaped bolt head. Hi Meredith, I would expect ordinary steel to work for a time, but dry rubbing ordinary steel to steel contacts tend to produce a small pile of rust after a while. You might consider putting a drop of clock or similar protective oil on the hinge and a paper dust screen around it? Regards, Chris In a message=20= dated 30/10/05, paleoartifact@......... writes:

Yesterday, I tried the simp= lest hinge (the two outer rod support/contacts) configuration using the most= commonly available material I could think of.  Its simply acouple of b= olts of a common 2.5" length, with 1/4" diameter, where only part of the len= gth (.750") is threaded, and the rest of the length is of a round rod out to= the hex shaped bolt head.


Hi Meredith,

      I would expect ordinary steel to wo= rk for a time, but dry rubbing ordinary steel to steel contacts tend to prod= uce a small pile of rust after a while.=20
      You might consider putting a drop o= f clock or similar protective oil on the hinge and a paper dust screen aroun= d it?

      Regards,

      Chris   



Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinges/suspensions...with two bolts extended from a square rod. From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 20:32:19 -0700 Hi Chris, Yes, I've been using a U.S., common light oil (brand: 3 in 1 household oil) for the rod contacts. From quickly reviewing a web search for "clock oil", I see no clear cut brand that seems to garner universal acclaim as being the best, or ($), good enough for this application. However some of the web clock oiling tips I've read tend to recommend as little oil as possible where steel/iron clock parts are concerned. From such, I think I've overdone the amount of oil I use, and, probably a syringe approach might be better....or....even a toothpicks partial droplet is sufficient. I've not used a dust screen or cover for any test yet; but the recommendation is valid, as air borne dust particles will likely get onto/into such in a short period o= f time, and continue building up over time of course. Take care, Meredith Lamb On 10/30/05, ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > > In a message dated 30/10/05, paleoartifact@......... writes: > > Yesterday, I tried the simplest hinge (the two outer rod support/contacts= ) > configuration using the most commonly available material I could think of= . > Its simply acouple of bolts of a common 2.5" length, with 1/4" diameter, > where only part of the length (.750") is threaded, and the rest of the > length is of a round rod out to the hex shaped bolt head. > > > > Hi Meredith, > > I would expect ordinary steel to work for a time, but dry rubbing ordinar= y > steel to steel contacts tend to produce a small pile of rust after a whil= e. > You might consider putting a drop of clock or similar protective oil on > the hinge and a paper dust screen around it? > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Hi Chris,

Yes, I've been using a U.S., common light oil (brand: 3 in 1 household oil)= for the rod contacts.
From quickly reviewing a web search for "clock oil", I see no cle= ar cut brand that seems to
garner universal acclaim as being the best, or ($), good enough for this ap= plication.  However
some of the web clock oiling tips I've read tend to recommend as little oil= as possible where
steel/iron clock parts are concerned.  From such, I think I've overdon= e the amount of oil I
use, and, probably a syringe approach might be better....or....even a tooth= picks partial
droplet is sufficient.

I've not used a dust screen or cover for any test yet; but the recommendati= on is valid, as
air borne dust particles will likely get onto/into such in a short period o= f time, and continue
building up over time of course.

Take care, Meredith Lamb

On 10/30/0= 5, Chri= sAtUpw@....... <ChrisAtUpw= @....... > wrote:
In a= message dated 30/10/05,=20 paleoartifact@......... writ= es:

Yesterday, I tried the simplest hinge (the two outer rod support/contacts) configuration using the most commonly available material I could think of.  Its simply acouple of bolts of a common 2.5" length, with 1/4" diameter, where only part of the length (.750") is threaded,= and the rest of the length is of a round rod out to the hex shaped bolt head.


Hi Meredith,

      I would expect ordinary steel to work for a time, but dry rubbing ordinary steel to steel contacts tend to produce a small pile of rust after a while.
   =    You might consider putting a drop of clock or similar protective oil on the hinge and a paper dust screen around it?

      Regards,

      Chris   




Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinges/suspensions...with two bolts extended from a square rod. From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:44:15 EST In a message dated 31/10/05, paleoartifact@......... writes: > Yes, I've been using a U.S., common light oil (brand: 3 in 1 household oil) > for the rod contacts. From quickly reviewing a web search for "clock oil", I > see no clear cut brand that seems to garner universal acclaim as being the > best, or ($), good enough for this application. Hi Meredith, Have you looked at http://www.nawcc.org/ ? Regards, Chris In a message=20= dated 31/10/05, paleoartifact@......... writes:

Yes, I've been using a U.S.= , common light oil (brand: 3 in 1 household oil) for the rod contacts. From=20= quickly reviewing a web search for "clock oil", I see no clear cut brand tha= t seems to garner universal acclaim as being the best, or ($), good enough f= or this application.


Hi Meredith,

      Have you looked at http://www.nawcc= ..org/ ?

      Regards,

      Chris
Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinges/suspensions...with two bolts extended from a square rod. From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:21:08 -0700 Hi Chris, Thanks for the reference....however, its a totally "closed" site; there is no free online access to their past articles that could be of interest (which they list) from old bulletins...which you can't buy either....oh well, the web search engines will have to do. Its kind of a museum, school, and relatively hefty fee orientated org, mainly for specific clocks, or clock or watch courses. Makes me mighty glad that PSN, allows access to their past emails, about various subjects....which I've used alot lately!!! Take care, Meredith On 10/30/05, ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > > In a message dated 31/10/05, paleoartifact@......... writes: > > Yes, I've been using a U.S., common light oil (brand: 3 in 1 household > oil) for the rod contacts. From quickly reviewing a web search for "clock > oil", I see no clear cut brand that seems to garner universal acclaim as > being the best, or ($), good enough for this application. > > > > Hi Meredith, > > Have you looked at http://www.nawcc.org/ ? > > Regards, > > Chris Hi Chris,

Thanks for the reference....however, its a totally "closed" site;= there is no
free online access to their past articles that could be of interest (which<= br> they list) from old bulletins...which you can't buy either....oh well, the<= br> web search engines will have to do.  Its kind of a museum, school, and=
relatively hefty fee orientated org, mainly for specific clocks, or clock or watch courses.  

Makes me mighty glad that PSN, allows access to their past emails,
about various subjects....which I've used alot lately!!!

Take care, Meredith

On 10/30/05, ChrisAtUp= w@....... <ChrisAtUpw@..... com > wrote:
In a= message dated 31/10/05,=20 paleoartifact@......... writ= es:

Yes, I've been using a U.S., common light oil (brand: 3 in 1 household oil) for the rod contacts. From quickly reviewing a web search for "clock oil", I see no clear cut brand that seems to garner universal acclaim as being the best, or ($), good enough for this application.
<= /font>

Hi Meredith,

      Have you looked at http://www.nawcc.org/ ?

      Regards,

      Chris

Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinges/suspensions...with two bolts extended from a square rod. From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:26:21 EST In a message dated 31/10/05, paleoartifact@......... writes: > Hi Chris, > > Thanks for the reference....however, its a totally "closed" site; there is no > free online access to their past articles that could be of interest (which > they list) from old bulletins...which you can't buy either....oh well, the > web search engines will have to do. Its kind of a museum, school, and > relatively hefty fee orientated org, mainly for specific clocks, or clock > or watch courses. Hi Meredith, Check out http://www.ubr.com/clocks/nawcc/hsc/hsn.html I was thinking more in terms of advertised / recommended oil brands. They are fairly fussy. In a message=20= dated 31/10/05, paleoartifact@......... writes:

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the reference....however, its a totally "closed" site; there=20= is no
free online access to their past articles that could be of interest (whi= ch
they list) from old bulletins...which you can't buy either....oh well, t= he
web search engines will have to do.  Its kind of a museum, school,=20= and
relatively hefty fee orientated org, mainly for specific clocks, or cloc= k
or watch courses.   


Hi Meredith,

      Check out http://www.ubr.com/clocks= /nawcc/hsc/hsn.html=20

      I was thinking more in terms of adv= ertised / recommended oil brands. They are fairly fussy.
Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinges/suspensions...with two bolts extended from a From: "Charles R. Patton" charles.r.patton@........ Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 21:55:52 -0800 My thought is that you either use the carbide sources we discussed earlier or go to any good hardware store and buy some stainless steel bolts. No corrosion on either, and therefor no need for oil. Regards, Charles Patton ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: >In a message dated 31/10/05, paleoartifact@......... writes: > > > >>Yes, I've been using a U.S., common light oil (brand: 3 in 1 household oil) >>for the rod contacts. From quickly reviewing a web search for "clock oil", I >>see no clear cut brand that seems to garner universal acclaim as being the >>best, or ($), good enough for this application. >> >> > >Hi Meredith, > > Have you looked at http://www.nawcc.org/ ? > > Regards, > > Chris > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinges/suspensions...with two bolts extended from a square rod. From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:08:39 -0700 Hi Chris, Excellent reference Chris! The website you gave below, does lead to another URL, which delves into quite afew potentially interesting topics that might be applicable to oil/lubrication, suspensions and even various "booms= " (pendulum shafts materials) that initially draw some curiosity. The URL: http://www.horology.com/hip-hsin.html (Horological science newsletter) especially lists quite afew on their index that stand out, like, "rolamite suspension", "roller suspension", "crossed spring pivot suspension", "crossed suspension" and many other etc., let alone lubrication/oil. Once again....one has to join their society/club, an= d pay additional for what limited yearly information the newsletter people there do have available. Will have to "chew" on whether the >$120 fees would be worthwhile (?), which I likely won't do, as I think we have the "general idea" already. On the other hand....the overall (free) web has zero there on the crossed rod/wire suspensions. The main oil/lubrication subject...at least via looking on web search engines, has really no (thus far) individual sites that come out and honestly exert their (best) opinions on all the various oils that are available (which their is quite afew around). I suppose its kind of a way of avoiding lawsuits from other oil brand makers, who may be slighted. For the moment, the only brand that "kind of" gets more positive leaning recommendations is the French oil: "La Perle". Take care, Meredith On 10/30/05, ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > > In a message dated 31/10/05, paleoartifact@......... writes: > > Hi Chris, > > Thanks for the reference....however, its a totally "closed" site; there i= s > no > free online access to their past articles that could be of interest (whic= h > > they list) from old bulletins...which you can't buy either....oh well, th= e > > web search engines will have to do. Its kind of a museum, school, and > relatively hefty fee orientated org, mainly for specific clocks, or clock > or watch courses. > > > > Hi Meredith, > > Check out http://www.ubr.com/clocks/nawcc/hsc/hsn.html > > I was thinking more in terms of advertised / recommended oil brands. They > are fairly fussy. > Hi Chris,

Excellent reference Chris!  The website you gave below, does lead to another URL, which delves into quite afew potentially interesting topics th= at
might be applicable to oil/lubrication, suspensions and even various "= booms"
(pendulum shafts materials) that initially draw some curiosity.  The U= RL:
http://www.horology.com/h= ip-hsin.html
(Horological science newsletter) especially lists quite afew on their index=
that stand out, like, "rolamite suspension", "roller suspens= ion", "crossed
spring pivot suspension", "crossed suspension" and many othe= r etc., let
alone lubrication/oil.  Once again....one has to join their society/cl= ub, and
pay additional for what limited yearly information the newsletter people there do have available.  Will have to "chew" on whether the= >$120 fees
would be worthwhile (?), which I likely won't do, as I think we have the "general idea" already.  On the other hand....the overall (f= ree) web has
zero there on the crossed rod/wire suspensions.

The main oil/lubrication subject...at least via looking on web search engin= es,
has really no (thus far) individual sites that come out and honestly exert<= br> their (best) opinions on all the various oils that are available (which the= ir is
quite afew around).  I suppose its kind of a way of avoiding lawsuits = from
other oil brand makers, who may be slighted.  For the moment, the only=
brand that "kind of" gets more positive leaning recommendations i= s the
French oil: "La Perle".

Take care, Meredith
 

On 10/30/05, ChrisAtUpw@.......= <ChrisAtUpw@.......> w= rote:
In a message dated 31/10/0= 5, paleoartifact@......... writes:

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the reference....however, its a totally "closed" s= ite; there is no
free online access to their past articles that could be of interest (wh= ich
they list) from old bulletins...which you can't buy either....oh well, = the
web search engines will have to do.  Its kind of a museum, school,= and
relatively hefty fee orientated org, mainly for specific clocks, or clo= ck
or watch courses.   


Hi Meredith,

      Check out http://www.ubr.com/clocks/nawcc/hsc/hsn.ht= ml=20

      I was thinking more in terms of ad= vertised / recommended oil brands. They are fairly fussy.

Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinges/suspensions...with two bolts extended from a square rod. From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:44:51 -0700 Hi Charles, I dug up acouple ~30 year old 1/4" diameter carbide end mills with enough shank exposure to test such today. I don't have a long carbide "cross rod", so, I used the same stainless steel cross rod/boom/mass as in other tests. The carbide is uncoated; i.e., it doesn't have some of the exotic surface materials as some of todays cabide milling/lathe bits have today. I sanded it abit in the drill press chuck with 600 grit sandpaper to hopefully dispose of whatever grime it may have had. Their was no nicks, gouges, or other material disfigurations I could see on the round shanks. They had somewhat of a enhanced shine afterward in sunlight, and a centered reflective light "line" indoors. The surface felt fairly smooth; but not as smooth as most steels I've tried. I oscillated it "dry", with no oil. It was a disaster compared to other common steels, or, stainless steels; as it quit after only 1 hour and 29 minutes. = I could tell early on, it wasn't going to oscillate very long. Being as it is, and without disturbing the cross rod, I added a drop of oil lubrication to each of the two joints/hinges, to test the oscillation time with such. Here, it quit oscillating after 1 hour and 39 minutes. Its not much o= f a time difference, but it seems more friction free with oil. Of course for other materials, one can do with or without oil as they wish. Obviously uncoated carbide isn't a utopia material for this application; which I think most of the carbide sold today is probably with the same "rough" initial surface, and any applied coating wouldn't seem to enhance this use. The results were rather similiar, where I tried acouple balll bearings to rest on flat uncoated carbide milling bits; it didn't work there very well either. I suppose it can be lapped finer; but I don't think the time, effort and expense is really worth the effort, when other material is much easier to prepare/use. I will also try (all 3) rods of stainless steel rods sometime with and without oil, to see what happens with that material. We'll find out how that goes. Take care, Meredith On 10/30/05, Charles R. Patton wrote: > > My thought is that you either use the carbide sources we discussed > earlier or go to any good hardware store and buy some stainless steel > bolts. No corrosion on either, and therefor no need for oil. > Regards, > Charles Patton > > Hi Charles,

I dug up acouple ~30 year old 1/4" diameter carbide end mills with eno= ugh shank
exposure to test such today.  I don't have a long carbide "cross = rod", so, I used
the same stainless steel cross rod/boom/mass as in other tests.

The carbide is uncoated; i.e., it doesn't have some of the exotic surface m= aterials
as some of todays cabide milling/lathe bits have today.  I sanded it a= bit in the
drill press chuck with 600 grit sandpaper to hopefully dispose of whatever = grime
it may have had.  Their was no nicks, gouges, or other material disfig= urations I
could see on the round shanks.  They had somewhat of a enhanced shine<= br> afterward in sunlight, and a centered reflective light "line" ind= oors.  The surface
felt fairly smooth; but not as smooth as most steels I've tried.

I oscillated it "dry", with no oil.  It was a disaster compa= red to other common
steels, or, stainless steels; as it quit after only 1 hour and 29 minutes.&= nbsp; I could
tell early on, it wasn't going to oscillate very long.

Being as it is, and without disturbing the cross rod, I added a drop of oil=
lubrication to each of the two joints/hinges, to test the oscillation time = with
such.  Here, it quit oscillating after 1 hour and 39 minutes.  It= s not much of a
time difference, but it seems more friction free with oil.  Of course = for other
materials, one can do with or without oil as they wish.

Obviously uncoated carbide isn't a utopia material for this application; wh= ich I
think most of the carbide sold today is probably with the same "rough&= quot;
initial surface, and any applied coating wouldn't seem to enhance this use.=
The results were rather similiar, where I tried acouple balll bearings to r= est
on flat uncoated carbide milling bits; it didn't work there very well eithe= r.  I
suppose it can be lapped finer; but I don't think the time, effort and expe= nse
is really worth the effort, when other material is much easier to prepare/u= se.

I will also try (all 3) rods of stainless steel rods sometime with and with= out
oil, to see what happens with that material.  We'll find out how that = goes.

Take care, Meredith  

On 10/= 30/05, Charles R. Patton <charles.r.patton@........> wrote:
My thought is that you either use the carbide sources we discussed
earli= er or go to any good hardware store and buy some stainless steel
bolts.&= nbsp; No corrosion on either, and therefor no need for oil.
Regards= ,
Charles Patton


Subject: Re: Digest from 10/30/2005 01:01:23 From: "Randy" rpratt@............. Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:46:12 -0600 Merideth, I have been using a light teflon lubricant called Break Free for various tasks over the last couple years. I find it far superior to the 3 in1 in most instances. It is less temperature sensitive, attracts less dust and lubricates for a much longer period for a given use. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 2:00 AM Subject: Digest from 10/30/2005 01:01:23 > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 1 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Crossed rod hinges/suspensions...with two bolts extended from a square rod. > From: meredith lamb > Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:20:58 -0700 > > ------=_Part_12425_28312261.1130696458196 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Disposition: inline > > Hi all, > > Yesterday, I tried the simplest hinge (the two outer rod support/contacts) > configuration __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Galitzin-type seismometer From: John Popelish jpopelish@........ Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:21:14 -0500 Rick Groleau wrote: > John Popelish wrote: >> Rick Groleau wrote: >>>For anyone who's interested, I've just put together a page of my system, (snip) >>> http://users.rcn.com/rgroleau/seismo/index.html (snip) >> Mechanically, the design looks very nice. Electronically, it is >> pretty primitive and simple upgrades could improve it significantly. >> >> The coil is unshielded, and the amplifier has no filter function >> included to reject either 60 cycle hum or other mechanical noise that >> isn't part of the seismic signal. Still it does pretty well with what >> it's got. >> >> Are you interested in changing anything at this point? > > Thanks for the comments, John. And yes, I wouldn't mind replacing the > amplifier with something more up-to-date, and with connecting the system > to my computer (which may be difficult, since I use a Mac). Any suggestions? I am fascinated with the germanium amplifier and how it might be simply upgraded. Are you interested in replacing a few components to get more gain and less noise from it before you replace it? It is a museum piece. If so, I would like to know what the collector voltage is with respect to ground for each stage. I suspect that the choice of bias resistors is not at all optimum to get the full capability out of these old transistors. The cheapest digitizer I know of to get something into your computer would be one of the DATAQ units available on this page: http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/index.htm One of these could be hooked up between your present amplifier and the MAC. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Galitzin-type seismometer From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:29:45 EST In a message dated 01/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes: > The cheapest digitizer I know of to get something into your computer > would be one of the DATAQ units available on this page: > http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/index.htm > > One of these could be hooked up between your present amplifier and the > Hi Rick, Do check it out, but I think that Dataq are exclusively Windows / IBM PC type, not MAC. You need a 12 bit ADC minimum, in my experience. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 01/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes:

The cheapest digitizer I kn= ow of to get something into your computer=20
would be one of the DATAQ units available on this page:
http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/index.htm

One of these could be hooked up between your present amplifier and the=20
MAC.


Hi Rick,

      Do check it out, but I think that D= ataq are exclusively Windows / IBM PC type, not MAC. You need a 12 bit ADC m= inimum, in my experience.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Digest from 10/30/2005 01:01:23 From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:24:03 -0700 Hi Randy, Thanks for the reference Randy. Am not sure at all, whether such would work with crossed rod hinges/suspensions. Do you have the green liquid variety, or the spray variety; and if so, can it "bead up" like between two metal rods similar to "regular oils", or, does it flow away? I get the impression it is meant for just very thin film applications. Their web site states it is partially water soluable...which kind of makes me wonder, it it would more or less evaporate, and leave a concentration that might hinder a crossed rod suspension. "Think" it might also have a paraffin like substance therein. Have really no opinion or real knowledge on synthetic oils; other than what I've read where; some holological (clock/time users) people, seem to kind of lean away from any synthetic oils....but, at the same time...others like some of them. Take care, Meredith Lamb On 10/31/05, Randy wrote: > > Meredith, > > I have been using a light teflon lubricant called Break Free for various > tasks over the last couple years. I find it far superior to the 3 in1 in > most instances. It is less temperature sensitive, attracts less dust and > lubricates for a much longer period for a given use. > > Randy > > Hi Randy,

Thanks for the reference Randy.  Am not sure at all, whether such woul= d
work with crossed rod hinges/suspensions.

Do you have the green liquid variety, or the spray variety; and if so, can = it
"bead up" like between two metal rods similar to "regular oi= ls", or, does
it flow away?  I get the impression it is meant for just very thin fil= m
applications.

Their web site states it is partially water soluable...which kind of makes<= br> me wonder, it it would more or less evaporate, and leave a concentration that might hinder a crossed rod suspension.  "Think" it migh= t also have
a paraffin like substance therein.  Have really no opinion or real
knowledge on synthetic oils; other than what I've read where; some
holological (clock/time users) people, seem to kind of lean away from
any synthetic oils....but, at the same time...others like some of them.

Take care, Meredith Lamb

On 10/31/0= 5, Randy <rpratt@.............> wrote:
Meredith,

I have been using a light teflon lubricant called Break Fr= ee for various
tasks over the last couple years.  I find it fa= r superior to the 3 in1 in
most instances.  It is less tempera= ture sensitive, attracts less dust and
lubricates for a much longer period for a given use.

Randy

Subject: Re: Galitzin-type seismometer From: Ian Smith ian@........... Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2005 08:45:23 +0000 have a look at http://sine.ni.com/nips/cds/view/p/lang/en/nid/14604 It's about $150 and the data logger which comes with it runs on a Mac. It can also be driven from Labview which runs on a mac. Ian Smith ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > In a message dated 01/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes: > >> The cheapest digitizer I know of to get something into your computer >> would be one of the DATAQ units available on this page: >> http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/index.htm >> >> One of these could be hooked up between your present amplifier and the >> MAC. > > > > Hi Rick, > > Do check it out, but I think that Dataq are exclusively Windows / > IBM PC type, not MAC. You need a 12 bit ADC minimum, in my experience. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinges/suspensions...with two bolts extended from a square rod. From: "James Hannon" jmhannon@......... Date: Tue, 1 Nov 105 07:23:59 CST BTW The TiN coating (Titanium Nitride gold colored) coating used in cutting tools is supposed to have high lubricity. Might be work trying on the pivots. Jim Hannon ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: meredith lamb Reply-To: psn-l@.............. Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:44:51 -0700 >Hi Charles, > >I dug up acouple ~30 year old 1/4" diameter carbide end mills with enough >shank >exposure to test such today. I don't have a long carbide "cross rod", so, I >used >the same stainless steel cross rod/boom/mass as in other tests. > >The carbide is uncoated; i.e., it doesn't have some of the exotic surface >materials >as some of todays cabide milling/lathe bits have today. -- Jim Hannon http://www.fmtcs.com/web/jmhannon/ 42,11.90N,91,39.26W WB0TXL -- __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinges/suspensions...with two bolts extended from a square rod. From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 10:56:23 EST In a message dated 31/10/05, paleoartifact@......... writes: > Obviously uncoated carbide isn't a utopia material for this application; > which I > think most of the carbide sold today is probably with the same "rough" > initial surface, and any applied coating wouldn't seem to enhance this use. > bearings to rest > on flat uncoated carbide milling bits; it didn't work there very well > either. Hi there, If you buy carbide drills of either type I recommended, you will find that they have a very nearly mirror polished surface. Regards, Chris Chapman. In a message=20= dated 31/10/05, paleoartifact@......... writes:

Obviously uncoated carbide=20= isn't a utopia material for this application; which I
think most of the carbide sold today is probably with the same "rough"
initial surface, and any applied coating wouldn't seem to enhance this u= se.=20
The results were rather similiar, where I tried acouple ball bearings to rest

on flat uncoated carbide= milling bits; it didn't work there very well either.


Hi there,

      If you buy carbide drills of either= type I recommended, you will find that they have a very nearly mirror polis= hed surface.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman.
Subject: Re: Digest from 10/31/2005 00:00:40 From: "Randy" rpratt@............. Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 12:57:27 -0600 Meredith, I have the thin liquid variety. For a short term at least it will bead up in the cross joint like oil. It also seems to lubricate well as an almost imperceptible film once a good coating has been applied so you could maybe even wipe most of it off. My can mentions a 2 hour cure time. On house and car door hinges it seems to just vanish but no squeaks come back for months. I tried some in a cuckoo clock music box about 2 years ago and haven't opened it back up. I was worried about getting very much in there not knowing how the solvents would react to the other parts as the lubrication dispersed so I just used a toothpick to insert a minamal amount. Randy ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 2:01 AM Subject: Digest from 10/31/2005 00:00:40 > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 1 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinges/suspensions...with two bolts extended from a square rod. > From: meredith lamb > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:08:39 -0700 > > ------=_Part_19234_26607948.1130782119730 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Disposition: inline > > Hi Chris, > > Excellent reference Chris! The website you gave below, does lead to > another URL, which delves into quite afew potentially interesting topics > that > might be applicable to oil/lubrication, suspensions and even various "booms= > " > (pendulum shafts materials) that initially draw some curiosity. The URL: > http://www.horology.com/hip-hsin.html > (Horological science newsletter) especially lists quite afew on their index > that stand out, like, "rolamite suspension", "roller suspension", "crossed > spring pivot suspension", "crossed suspension" and many other etc., let > alone lubrication/oil. Once again....one has to join their society/club, an= > d > pay additional for what limited yearly information the newsletter people > there do have available. Will have to "chew" on whether the >$120 fees > would be worthwhile (?), which I likely won't do, as I think we have the > "general idea" already. On the other hand....the overall (free) web has > zero there on the crossed rod/wire suspensions. > > The main oil/lubrication subject...at least via looking on web search > engines, > has really no (thus far) individual sites that come out and honestly exert > their (best) opinions on all the various oils that are available (which > their is > quite afew around). I suppose its kind of a way of avoiding lawsuits from > other oil brand makers, who may be slighted. For the moment, the only > brand that "kind of" gets more positive leaning recommendations is the > French oil: "La Perle". > > Take care, Meredith > > > On 10/30/05, ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > > > > In a message dated 31/10/05, paleoartifact@......... writes: > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > Thanks for the reference....however, its a totally "closed" site; there i= > s > > no > > free online access to their past articles that could be of interest (whic= > h > > > > they list) from old bulletins...which you can't buy either....oh well, th= > e > > > > web search engines will have to do. Its kind of a museum, school, and > > relatively hefty fee orientated org, mainly for specific clocks, or clock > > or watch courses. > > > > > > > > Hi Meredith, > > > > Check out http://www.ubr.com/clocks/nawcc/hsc/hsn.html > > > > I was thinking more in terms of advertised / recommended oil brands. They > > are fairly fussy. > > > > ------=_Part_19234_26607948.1130782119730 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Disposition: inline > > Hi Chris,
>
> Excellent reference Chris!  The website you gave below, does lead to r> > another URL, which delves into quite afew potentially interesting topics th= > at
> might be applicable to oil/lubrication, suspensions and even various "= > booms"
> (pendulum shafts materials) that initially draw some curiosity.  The U= > RL:
> http://www.horology.com/h= > ip-hsin.html
> (Horological science newsletter) especially lists quite afew on their index= >
> that stand out, like, "rolamite suspension", "roller suspens= > ion", "crossed
> spring pivot suspension", "crossed suspension" and many othe= > r etc., let
> alone lubrication/oil.  Once again....one has to join their society/cl= > ub, and
> pay additional for what limited yearly information the newsletter people > > there do have available.  Will have to "chew" on whether the= > >$120 fees
> would be worthwhile (?), which I likely won't do, as I think we have the > > "general idea" already.  On the other hand....the overall (f= > ree) web has
> zero there on the crossed rod/wire suspensions.
>
> The main oil/lubrication subject...at least via looking on web search engin= > es,
> has really no (thus far) individual sites that come out and honestly exert<= > br> > their (best) opinions on all the various oils that are available (which the= > ir is
> quite afew around).  I suppose its kind of a way of avoiding lawsuits = > from
> other oil brand makers, who may be slighted.  For the moment, the only= >
> brand that "kind of" gets more positive leaning recommendations i= > s the
> French oil: "La Perle".
>
> Take care, Meredith
>  

On 10/30/05, il_sendername">ChrisAtUpw@.......= > <ChrisAtUpw@.......> w= > rote: >
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> al,helvetica">In a message dated 31/10/0= > 5, return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"> > paleoartifact@......... writes: >
>
: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 255); margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px; padding-le= > ft: 5px;">Hi Chris, >
>
Thanks for the reference....however, its a totally "closed" s= > ite; there is no >
free online access to their past articles that could be of interest (wh= > ich >
they list) from old bulletins...which you can't buy either....oh well, = > the >
web search engines will have to do.  Its kind of a museum, school,= > and >
relatively hefty fee orientated org, mainly for specific clocks, or clo= > ck >
or watch courses.   
>
>
Hi Meredith, >
>
      Check out r.com/clocks/nawcc/hsc/hsn.html" target=3D"_blank" onclick=3D"return top.js= > ..OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.ubr.com/clocks/nawcc/hsc/hsn.ht= > ml=20 >
>
      I was thinking more in terms of ad= > vertised / recommended oil brands. They are fairly fussy. >
> >

> > ------=_Part_19234_26607948.1130782119730-- > > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 2 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinges/suspensions...with two bolts extended from a square rod. > From: meredith lamb > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:44:51 -0700 > > ------=_Part_22067_497498.1130802291807 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Disposition: inline > > Hi Charles, > > I dug up acouple ~30 year old 1/4" diameter carbide end mills with enough > shank > exposure to test such today. I don't have a long carbide "cross rod", so, I > used > the same stainless steel cross rod/boom/mass as in other tests. > > The carbide is uncoated; i.e., it doesn't have some of the exotic surface > materials > as some of todays cabide milling/lathe bits have today. I sanded it abit in > the > drill press chuck with 600 grit sandpaper to hopefully dispose of whatever > grime > it may have had. Their was no nicks, gouges, or other material > disfigurations I > could see on the round shanks. They had somewhat of a enhanced shine > afterward in sunlight, and a centered reflective light "line" indoors. The > surface > felt fairly smooth; but not as smooth as most steels I've tried. > > I oscillated it "dry", with no oil. It was a disaster compared to other > common > steels, or, stainless steels; as it quit after only 1 hour and 29 minutes. = > I > could > tell early on, it wasn't going to oscillate very long. > > Being as it is, and without disturbing the cross rod, I added a drop of oil > lubrication to each of the two joints/hinges, to test the oscillation time > with > such. Here, it quit oscillating after 1 hour and 39 minutes. Its not much o= > f > a > time difference, but it seems more friction free with oil. Of course for > other > materials, one can do with or without oil as they wish. > > Obviously uncoated carbide isn't a utopia material for this application; > which I > think most of the carbide sold today is probably with the same "rough" > initial surface, and any applied coating wouldn't seem to enhance this use. > The results were rather similiar, where I tried acouple balll bearings to > rest > on flat uncoated carbide milling bits; it didn't work there very well > either. I > suppose it can be lapped finer; but I don't think the time, effort and > expense > is really worth the effort, when other material is much easier to > prepare/use. > > I will also try (all 3) rods of stainless steel rods sometime with and > without > oil, to see what happens with that material. We'll find out how that goes. > > Take care, Meredith > > On 10/30/05, Charles R. Patton wrote: > > > > My thought is that you either use the carbide sources we discussed > > earlier or go to any good hardware store and buy some stainless steel > > bolts. No corrosion on either, and therefor no need for oil. > > Regards, > > Charles Patton > > > > > > ------=_Part_22067_497498.1130802291807 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Disposition: inline > > Hi Charles,
>
> I dug up acouple ~30 year old 1/4" diameter carbide end mills with eno= > ugh shank
> exposure to test such today.  I don't have a long carbide "cross = > rod", so, I used
> the same stainless steel cross rod/boom/mass as in other tests.
>
> The carbide is uncoated; i.e., it doesn't have some of the exotic surface m= > aterials
> as some of todays cabide milling/lathe bits have today.  I sanded it a= > bit in the
> drill press chuck with 600 grit sandpaper to hopefully dispose of whatever = > grime
> it may have had.  Their was no nicks, gouges, or other material disfig= > urations I
> could see on the round shanks.  They had somewhat of a enhanced shine<= > br> > afterward in sunlight, and a centered reflective light "line" ind= > oors.  The surface
> felt fairly smooth; but not as smooth as most steels I've tried.
>
> I oscillated it "dry", with no oil.  It was a disaster compa= > red to other common
> steels, or, stainless steels; as it quit after only 1 hour and 29 minutes.&= > nbsp; I could
> tell early on, it wasn't going to oscillate very long.
>
> Being as it is, and without disturbing the cross rod, I added a drop of oil= >
> lubrication to each of the two joints/hinges, to test the oscillation time = > with
> such.  Here, it quit oscillating after 1 hour and 39 minutes.  It= > s not much of a
> time difference, but it seems more friction free with oil.  Of course = > for other
> materials, one can do with or without oil as they wish.
>
> Obviously uncoated carbide isn't a utopia material for this application; wh= > ich I
> think most of the carbide sold today is probably with the same "rough&= > quot;
> initial surface, and any applied coating wouldn't seem to enhance this use.= >
> The results were rather similiar, where I tried acouple balll bearings to r= > est
> on flat uncoated carbide milling bits; it didn't work there very well eithe= > r.  I
> suppose it can be lapped finer; but I don't think the time, effort and expe= > nse
> is really worth the effort, when other material is much easier to prepare/u= > se.
>
> I will also try (all 3) rods of stainless steel rods sometime with and with= > out
> oil, to see what happens with that material.  We'll find out how that = > goes.
>
> Take care, Meredith  

On 10/= > 30/05, Charles R. Patton < ailto:charles.r.patton@........">charles.r.patton@........> wrote: span>
204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> > My thought is that you either use the carbide sources we discussed
earli= > er or go to any good hardware store and buy some stainless steel
bolts.&= > nbsp; No corrosion on either, and therefor no need for oil.
Regards= > ,
Charles Patton >


> > ------=_Part_22067_497498.1130802291807-- > > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 3 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: Digest from 10/30/2005 01:01:23 > From: "Randy" > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:46:12 -0600 > > Merideth, > > I have been using a light teflon lubricant called Break Free for various > tasks over the last couple years. I find it far superior to the 3 in1 in > most instances. It is less temperature sensitive, attracts less dust and > lubricates for a much longer period for a given use. > > Randy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 2:00 AM > Subject: Digest from 10/30/2005 01:01:23 > > > > > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > > | Message 1 | > > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > > Subject: Crossed rod hinges/suspensions...with two bolts extended from a > square rod. > > From: meredith lamb > > Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2005 11:20:58 -0700 > > > > ------=_Part_12425_28312261.1130696458196 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Content-Disposition: inline > > > > Hi all, > > > > Yesterday, I tried the simplest hinge (the two outer rod support/contacts) > > configuration > > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 4 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: Galitzin-type seismometer > From: John Popelish > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:21:14 -0500 > > Rick Groleau wrote: > > John Popelish wrote: > >> Rick Groleau wrote: > >>>For anyone who's interested, I've just put together a page of my > system, > (snip) > >>> http://users.rcn.com/rgroleau/seismo/index.html > (snip) > >> Mechanically, the design looks very nice. Electronically, it is > >> pretty primitive and simple upgrades could improve it significantly. > >> > >> The coil is unshielded, and the amplifier has no filter function > >> included to reject either 60 cycle hum or other mechanical noise that > >> isn't part of the seismic signal. Still it does pretty well with what > >> it's got. > >> > >> Are you interested in changing anything at this point? > > > > Thanks for the comments, John. And yes, I wouldn't mind replacing the > > amplifier with something more up-to-date, and with connecting the system > > to my computer (which may be difficult, since I use a Mac). Any suggestions? > > I am fascinated with the germanium amplifier and how it might be > simply upgraded. Are you interested in replacing a few components to > get more gain and less noise from it before you replace it? It is a > museum piece. > > If so, I would like to know what the collector voltage is with respect > to ground for each stage. I suspect that the choice of bias resistors > is not at all optimum to get the full capability out of these old > transistors. > > The cheapest digitizer I know of to get something into your computer > would be one of the DATAQ units available on this page: > http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/index.htm > > One of these could be hooked up between your present amplifier and the > MAC. > > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 5 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: Galitzin-type seismometer > From: ChrisAtUpw@....... > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:29:45 EST > > > --part1_1d8.49171fd9.30982d19_boundary > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In a message dated 01/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes: > > > The cheapest digitizer I know of to get something into your computer > > would be one of the DATAQ units available on this page: > > http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/index.htm > > > > One of these could be hooked up between your present amplifier and the > > > > Hi Rick, > > Do check it out, but I think that Dataq are exclusively Windows / IBM > PC type, not MAC. You need a 12 bit ADC minimum, in my experience. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman > > --part1_1d8.49171fd9.30982d19_boundary > Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > In a message=20= > dated 01/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes: >
>
LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">The cheapest digitizer I kn= > ow of to get something into your computer=20 >
would be one of the DATAQ units available on this page: >
http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/index.htm >
>
One of these could be hooked up between your present amplifier and the=20 >
MAC.
>
>
Hi Rick, >
>
      Do check it out, but I think that D= > ataq are exclusively Windows / IBM PC type, not MAC. You need a 12 bit ADC m= > inimum, in my experience. >
>
      Regards, >
>
      Chris Chapman
> > --part1_1d8.49171fd9.30982d19_boundary-- > > > .------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------. > | Message 6 | > '------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------' > Subject: Re: Digest from 10/30/2005 01:01:23 > From: meredith lamb > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2005 23:24:03 -0700 > > ------=_Part_23852_24910899.1130826243739 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Disposition: inline > > Hi Randy, > > Thanks for the reference Randy. Am not sure at all, whether such would > work with crossed rod hinges/suspensions. > > Do you have the green liquid variety, or the spray variety; and if so, can > it > "bead up" like between two metal rods similar to "regular oils", or, does > it flow away? I get the impression it is meant for just very thin film > applications. > > Their web site states it is partially water soluable...which kind of makes > me wonder, it it would more or less evaporate, and leave a concentration > that might hinder a crossed rod suspension. "Think" it might also have > a paraffin like substance therein. Have really no opinion or real > knowledge on synthetic oils; other than what I've read where; some > holological (clock/time users) people, seem to kind of lean away from > any synthetic oils....but, at the same time...others like some of them. > > Take care, Meredith Lamb > > On 10/31/05, Randy wrote: > > > > Meredith, > > > > I have been using a light teflon lubricant called Break Free for various > > tasks over the last couple years. I find it far superior to the 3 in1 in > > most instances. It is less temperature sensitive, attracts less dust and > > lubricates for a much longer period for a given use. > > > > Randy > > > > > > ------=_Part_23852_24910899.1130826243739 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Content-Disposition: inline > > Hi Randy,
>
> Thanks for the reference Randy.  Am not sure at all, whether such woul= > d
> work with crossed rod hinges/suspensions.
>
> Do you have the green liquid variety, or the spray variety; and if so, can = > it
> "bead up" like between two metal rods similar to "regular oi= > ls", or, does
> it flow away?  I get the impression it is meant for just very thin fil= > m
> applications.
>
> Their web site states it is partially water soluable...which kind of makes<= > br> > me wonder, it it would more or less evaporate, and leave a concentration > > that might hinder a crossed rod suspension.  "Think" it migh= > t also have
> a paraffin like substance therein.  Have really no opinion or real
> knowledge on synthetic oils; other than what I've read where; some
> holological (clock/time users) people, seem to kind of lean away from
> any synthetic oils....but, at the same time...others like some of them.
>
> Take care, Meredith Lamb

On 10/31/0= > 5, Randy < .midco.net">rpratt@.............> wrote:
gmail_quote" style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0p= > t 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;"> > Meredith,

I have been using a light teflon lubricant called Break Fr= > ee for various
tasks over the last couple years.  I find it fa= > r superior to the 3 in1 in
most instances.  It is less tempera= > ture sensitive, attracts less dust and >
lubricates for a much longer period for a given use.

Randy
r>

> > ------=_Part_23852_24910899.1130826243739-- > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-DIGEST-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Karl Cunninham are you still on this list From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:27:15 -0500 Karl, Are you still on this list, If you are please write me a note. Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Digest from 10/31/2005 00:00:40 From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 13:29:01 -0700 Hi randy, Thanks for the email below and participating! Right off, the lubricant just doesn't sound like it would work with crossed rods hinges/suspensions, with its evaporation and the potential of its long term thin film deposition effects which could interfere with hinge movement. The "cure time" aspect you mention really leaves me apprehensive of its use. Obviously the product seems rather interesting for the general purposes you describe. Right off; I'd hesitate to use such on a clock or your music box as it could impede the mechanics therein....which are probably alot more sensitive to their critical space, than larger physical objects with alot more mechanical room to adjust. I hope your music box works now! Take care, Meredith Lamb On 11/1/05, Randy wrote: > > Meredith, > > I have the thin liquid variety. For a short term at least it will bead up > in the cross joint like oil. It also seems to lubricate well as an almost > imperceptible film once a good coating has been applied so you could mayb= e > even wipe most of it off. My can mentions a 2 hour cure time. On house an= d > car door hinges it seems to just vanish but no squeaks come back for > months. > I tried some in a cuckoo clock music box about 2 years ago and haven't > opened it back up. I was worried about getting very much in there not > knowing how the solvents would react to the other parts as the lubricatio= n > dispersed so I just used a toothpick to insert a minamal amount. > Randy > > Hi randy,

Thanks for the email below and participating!

Right off, the lubricant just doesn't sound like it would work with
crossed rods hinges/suspensions, with its evaporation and the
potential of its long term thin film deposition effects which could
interfere with hinge movement.  The "cure time" aspect you m= ention
really leaves me apprehensive of its use.

Obviously the product seems rather interesting for the general
purposes you describe.  Right off; I'd hesitate to use such on a clock= or
your music box as it could impede the mechanics therein....which are
probably alot more sensitive to their critical space, than larger physical =
objects with alot more mechanical room to adjust.  I hope your music box works now!

Take care,  Meredith Lamb

 
On 11/1/05, Randy <rpratt@..... midco.net> wrote:
Meredith,

I have the thin liquid variety.  For a short ter= m at least it will bead up
in the cross joint like oil.  It al= so seems to lubricate well as an almost
imperceptible film once a good c= oating has been applied so you could maybe
even wipe most of it off.  My can mentions a 2 hour cure time= ..  On house and
car door hinges it seems to just vanish but no= squeaks come back for months.
I tried some in a cuckoo clock music box = about 2 years ago and haven't
opened it back up.  I was worried about getting very much in = there not
knowing how the solvents would react to the other parts as the= lubrication
dispersed so I just used a toothpick to insert a minamal am= ount.
Randy


Subject: Re: Crossed rod hinges/suspensions...with two bolts extended from a square rod. From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2005 10:02:05 -0700 Chris and James, Thanks for the emails and carbide notes...obviously I'am way behind the tim= e with up to date carbide offerings. I read where there is ~5000 grades of carbide, and probably many coating variations on such. At the minimum, I'll have to to to a tool shop and check out visually what they have and go from there. I'd think there wouldn't be much commercial brand/public variations in carbide drills...which narrows it alot. Take care, Meredith Lamb On 11/1/05, ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > > > Hi there, > > If you buy carbide drills of either type I recommended, you will find tha= t > they have a very nearly mirror polished surface. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman. Chris and James,

Thanks for the emails and carbide notes...obviously I'am way behind the tim= e
with up to date carbide offerings.  I read where there is ~5000 grades= of carbide,
and probably many coating variations on such.  At the minimum, I'll ha= ve to to
to a tool shop and check out visually what they have and go from there.&nbs= p; I'd
think there wouldn't be much commercial brand/public variations in carbide<= br> drills...which narrows it alot.

Take care, Meredith Lamb

On 11/1/05= , Chris= AtUpw@....... <ChrisAtUpw@....... > wrote:

Hi there,

      If you buy carbide drills of either type I recommended, you will find that they have a very nearly mirror polished surface.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman.

Subject: Re: Problem sending event files From: Mauro Mariotti mariotti@......... Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:25:07 +0100 Hello Bob, how are you? we have been in touch some months ago regarding Seismowin software with the DATAQ board. We spoken also about the inverse filtering to enanhce the low frequency response of the 4.5Hz geophone. Do you remember? Have you used Seismowin anymore? I doing some revisions on Seismowin and I would also add a better inverse filter (better than the one I already have). I remember that you realized an inverse filter and probably also sent me a copy of the code. I found a fragment of code in the PSN archives. What is the situation of the filter you designed? Can you kindly update me on it? cheers mauro __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Problem sending event files From: Mauro Mariotti mariotti@......... Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:30:30 +0100 Sorry the previous message was intended to be sent privately to Bob..!! :-) regards mauro __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Galitzin-type seismometer From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 21:16:32 EST In a message dated 27/10/05, rgroleau@....... writes: > http://users.rcn.com/rgroleau/seismo/index.html Hi Rick, This is a very commendable effort! Well done. I am not able to associate the various Al beams and dimensions in your list with the components list for the seismometer - the list seems to be incomplete. I did notice two things. The period is relatively short at 10 secs and only just extends beyond the large ocean background signals at ~ 6 secs. I also noticed that you had specified an angle of 8 sec from the vertical. It is desirable to run this type of seismometer at about 20 sec to also measure the longer period Love waves. I think that the 8 sec angle should probably be 8 min - I would estimate a period of about 20 sec from this. The problem with this design is that you have a very low moment of inertia. I estimate that the weight of the two long Al arms is about 1 lb each. You would get a much improved period and easier setup, if you added this amount of weight to the end of the arm, close to the coil. A suitable mass might be two 6" long by 1" square brass bars mounted vertically on the end of the beam You will probably have to use separate magnetic damping. You existing system is underdamped by your description. I can send you a drawing of the system that I use, with a copper plate and four NdFeB magnets, if it would be of intrerest. You might mount a horizontal copper damping 'tongue' at the level of the centre of the brass mass rods, on the opposite side of the vertical column to the pickup coil. I can also send you the circuit diagram of the fairly simple low noise amplifier that I use. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 27/10/05, rgroleau@....... writes:

 http://users.rcn.com= /rgroleau/seismo/index.html


Hi Rick,

      This is a very commendable effort!=20= Well done.

      I am not able to associate the vari= ous Al beams and dimensions in your list with the components list for the se= ismometer - the list seems to be incomplete.=20

      I did notice two things. The period= is relatively short at 10 secs and only just extends beyond the large ocean= background signals at ~ 6 secs. I also noticed that you had specified an an= gle of 8 sec from the vertical. It is desirable to run this type of seismome= ter at about 20 sec to also measure the longer period Love waves.
      I think that the 8 sec angle should= probably be 8 min - I would estimate a period of about 20 sec from this.
      The problem with this design is tha= t you have a very low moment of inertia. I estimate that the weight of the t= wo long Al arms is about 1 lb each. You would get a much improved period and= easier setup, if you added this amount of weight to the end of the arm, clo= se to the coil. A suitable mass might be two 6" long by 1" square brass bars= mounted vertically on the end of the beam
       You will probably have to use= separate magnetic damping. You existing system is underdamped by your descr= iption. I can send you a drawing of the system that I use, with a copper pla= te and four NdFeB magnets, if it would be of intrerest. You might mount a ho= rizontal copper damping 'tongue' at the level of the centre of the brass mas= s rods, on the opposite side of the vertical column to the pickup coil.
      I can also send you the circuit dia= gram of the fairly simple low noise amplifier that I use.=20

      Regards,
      
      Chris Chapman
Subject: Crossed rod hinge/suspensions...stainless steel cross rod on two rounded glass rod/tube surfaces. From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 20:27:54 -0700 Hi all, I ran acouple more table top/edge tests with a stainless steel cross rod (1/4" diameter), on acouple of variations of glass rod I found in the house/garage. I presum= e both glass items were common glass and not any special heat/stress/strength types. The glass was used as the two supports rods for a stainless steel cross rod/boom/mass with a weight of ~1.75 pounds and a natural oscillation period of 1.25 seconds. This test was run in a vertical hanging mass setup like a "S-G". There was no oil lubrication. The tests are only a crude measure of the friction involved with the two glass surfaces and the stainless steel cross rod. The first glass model was two 1/8" diameter solid glass rods, which appears to be common extrusion, and the surface was quite smooth to the touch and it had = a mirror like light reflective surface. With a 1/4" deflection of the mass and no dampening, the mass oscilliated for ~ 6 hours and 20 minutes. This time was ~ 40-50 minute= s longer than any steel on steel hinges I've tried thus far. The second glass model was two .196"-.199" diameter glass tubes with a wall thickness of 0.025". Again, it was a extrusion glass and the surface appeared the sam= e as the above test model. With a 1/4" deflection of the mass and no dampening, the mass oscillated for ~4 hours and 15 minutes. This was unexpected. A trial re-run= , even after rotating the glass, yielded approximately the same oscillation time. Why it oscillated less time than the solid glass rod is unknown at this time. I'd think that using such would be limited mostly to a vertical hanging mas= s setup, with a light weight boom/mass arrangement. One would have to likely increas= e the glass rod diameter for other hinge arrangements....and likely limit the boom/mass weight, and even then, it might affect/ruin the glass cross rod. Upon examination of the glass rods after their tests, there was not noted any glass surface crushing, or wear marks where the stainless steel cross rod had been; even with using a 16 power jewelers loupe. Long term use wear is unknown, but glass rod damage is of course possible. Older previous tests with various diameters of ball bearings on glass also didn't show any marks. Round glass rods/tube can come in a variety of objects, like drink stirring rods, lab stirring rods, decorative glass rod objects hanging from misc., and of course bulk varieties of rods/tubes from sellers, in a variety of diameters. Usually none of the glass rods are exact consistent diameters, and they can vary abit in such from one rod to the next; or even in diameter measurements along the same rod. I even tried acouple indoor wall hanging thermometer rods. They have a flattened diameter, and their cross section shape is almost triangular. That test ran for 5 hours. Thermometers are glass tubes, with closed ends. *Common glasses for drinking, could be a interesting test subject, if, the edges are rounded and smooth enough. If the glass jar is big enough, one might be able to put a hinge atop, and the rest of the mechanisms inside I suppose. Everything is "fair game" for trials. I see no real mounting problems with varying glass diameter rods; nor, is the cross rod zeroing application approach much different. Using only glass for the two supports of a crossed rod hinge/suspension appears to be a "mixed bag", as it can be better, or worse, than results I've seen with steel on steel hinges in the sense of friction. From the results above, it "could" imply that using all extruded solid glas= s rods for the cross rod and two supports, and not glass tubes, may yield a more friction free crossed rod hinge/suspension. Take care, Meredith Lamb Hi all,

I ran acouple more table top/edge tests with a stainless steel cross rod (1= /4" diameter),
on acouple of variations of glass rod I found in the house/garage.  I = presume both glass
items were common glass and not any special heat/stress/strength types.&nbs= p; The glass
was used as the two supports rods for a stainless steel cross rod/boom/mass= with a
weight of ~1.75 pounds and a natural oscillation period of 1.25 seconds.&nb= sp; This test was
run in a vertical hanging mass setup like a "S-G".  There wa= s no oil lubrication.  The
tests are only a crude measure of the friction involved with the two glass = surfaces and
the stainless steel cross rod.

The first glass model was two 1/8" diameter solid glass rods, which ap= pears to be
common extrusion, and the surface was quite smooth to the touch and it had = a mirror
like light reflective surface.  With a 1/4" deflection of the mas= s and no dampening, the
mass oscilliated for ~ 6 hours and 20 minutes.  This time was ~ 40-50 = minutes longer
than any steel on steel hinges I've tried thus far.

The second glass model was two .196"-.199" diameter glass tubes w= ith a wall thickness
of 0.025".  Again, it was a extrusion glass and the surface appea= red the same as the
above test model.  With a 1/4" deflection of the mass and no damp= ening, the mass
oscillated for ~4 hours and 15 minutes.  This was unexpected.  A = trial re-run, even after
rotating the glass, yielded approximately the same oscillation time.  = Why it oscillated
less time than the solid glass rod is unknown at this time.

I'd think that using such would be limited mostly to a vertical hanging mas= s setup,
with a light weight boom/mass arrangement.  One would have to likely i= ncrease the
glass rod diameter for other hinge arrangements....and likely limit the boo= m/mass
weight, and even then, it might affect/ruin the glass cross rod.

Upon examination of the glass rods after their tests, there was not noted a= ny glass
surface crushing, or wear marks where the stainless steel cross rod had bee= n; even
with using a 16 power jewelers loupe.  Long term use wear is unknown, = but glass
rod damage is of course possible.  Older previous tests with various d= iameters of
ball bearings on glass also didn't show any marks.

Round glass rods/tube can come in a variety of objects, like drink stirring= rods,
lab stirring rods, decorative glass rod objects hanging from misc., and of = course
bulk varieties of rods/tubes from sellers, in a variety of diameters. = Usually none
of the glass rods are exact consistent diameters, and they can vary abit in= such
from one rod to the next; or even in diameter measurements along the same r= od.

I even tried acouple indoor wall hanging thermometer rods.  They have = a flattened
diameter, and their cross section shape is almost triangular.   T= hat test ran for
5 hours.  Thermometers are glass tubes, with closed ends.

*Common glasses for drinking, could be a interesting test subject, if, the = edges
are rounded and smooth enough.  If the glass jar is big enough, one mi= ght be
able to put a hinge atop, and the rest of the mechanisms inside I suppose.<= br> Everything is "fair game" for trials.

I see no real mounting problems with varying glass diameter rods; nor, is t= he
cross rod zeroing application approach much different.

Using only glass for the two supports of a crossed rod hinge/suspension app= ears
to be a "mixed bag", as it can be better, or worse, than results = I've seen with steel
on steel hinges in the sense of friction.

From the results above, it "could" imply that using all extruded = solid glass rods
for the cross rod and two supports, and not glass tubes, may yield a more f= riction
free crossed rod hinge/suspension.

Take care, Meredith Lamb

 
Subject: Cross rod hinge/suspensions; a trial of a stainless steel cross rod on the outer rim mounting diameter surfaces of two precision ball bearings assemblys. From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 08:59:53 -0700 Hi all, This trial test involved resting a cross rod/boom/mass on the outer diamete= r rim mounting support surfaces of two precision ball bearing assemblys. The ball bearings assemblys were 5/8" in diameter, with a 1/4" bore/hole, and the width of the surface was 1/4". The finely ground surface of such was getting close to a mirror finish, and was quite "shiney" and reflective. The bearings have a outer diameter shell of hardened steel; perhaps alittle more brittle than regular tool steels. Of course; like all bearing assemblys of this nature, they contain round ball bearings in the races therein. The cross rod was the usual 1/4" diameter (~304 grade) stainless steel rod. The surface of which had only had 400 grit sandpaper smoothing, and is shiny but not anywhere near, to being a mirror reflective smooth rounded surface. The cross rod simply rests atop the ball bearing assemblys (not inside), in this vertical hanging mass or S-G type pendulum test setup. The period of the mass is 1.25seconds and the weight is ~ 1.75 pounds. For this test, the ball bearings assemblys were resting atop two aluminum support structures, and anchored at the contact point between the two, with a glue. The mass was offset 1/4" and allowed to oscillate freely, with no dampening of the mass. The time duration of the visual mass oscillations movement is a rough indicator of the friction. The first test was very encouraging for using these ball bearings assemblys as the outer two "rods" of the hinge, as the mass visually oscillated for 7 hours and 18 minutes, this total time was the best I've seen in any test thus far. No oil was used to lubricate the contact points. If I can't visually see any oscillation from 2-3 feet away...its "stopped" as far as the timed oscillation test is concerned. The second test used a drop of light oil at the contact junctions for lubrication. That time trial result was 7 hours and 3 minutes. Perhaps, if the seismometer is operated in a high humidity, or salt corrosive environment, it might be better to use jus= t alittle oil; to avert any oxidation or rust effects. Stainless steel doesn't mean that it can't rust; its just more rust resistant than other steels. Precision ball bearings assemblys come in a wide range of diameters, widths= , and bore hole inside diameters. They are probably more commonly available than is th= e stainless steel cross rod that I used here. Usually new assemblys can be quite expensive. However I note that E-Bay had some 20 items in various quanities that appeared very cheap per each item, and other larger assemblys were much more expensive. They likely won't be found in a common hardware store. Most bearings I've seen in hardware store= s recently are crudely made units and won't begin to work here. It would be nice to us= e new ball bearings assemblys as they are surface free of marks. Old used precision ball bearings assemblys may have surface grime, or baked on deposits, but probably will work after cleaning. I would think a light hand sanding/cleaning won't hurt such, as they hardened steel to begin with. Salvaging bearings from old jun= k motors is likely the most common "resource", but, they might be difficult to remove, unless one uses bearing puller tool mechanisms. Here, we don't care whether the bearing is "shot", we use the outer rim. The rim surfaces will never likely wear out, as the rod simply rolls on its surface. I can't think of any reason why outer ball bearings assemblys wouldn't work for other cross rod hinges in any type of seismometer. They do allow for much greater pressures, and mass weights to be used. Ball bearing assemblys with their center bore holes can be mounted rather readily with matching diameter bolts, on whatever type of orientation they could be used for. One could mount a washer slightly larger than the diameter of the ball bearing assembly (but not touching the cross rod), on the mounting bolt; which could be kind of a safety stop. There is likely a variety of mechanical ways to make assemblys with the two rods/bearing surfaces thereon. The cross rod friction level can likely be reduced by sanding the rod in a drill press or hand drill with progressively finer grits of sandpaper, i.e., 400, 800, 1200, etc., or using something else smoother. Take care, Meredith Lamb Hi all,

This trial test involved resting a cross rod/boom/mass on the outer diamete= r rim mounting
support surfaces of two precision ball bearing assemblys.  The ball be= arings assemblys were
5/8" in diameter, with a 1/4" bore/hole, and the width of the sur= face was 1/4".  The finely
ground surface of such was getting close to a mirror finish, and was quite = "shiney" and reflective.
The bearings have a outer diameter shell of hardened steel; perhaps alittle= more brittle than
regular tool steels.  Of course; like all bearing assemblys of this na= ture, they contain round
ball bearings in the races therein.

The cross rod was the usual 1/4" diameter (~304 grade) stainless steel= rod.  The surface
of which had only had 400 grit sandpaper smoothing, and is shiny but not an= ywhere near,
to being a mirror reflective smooth rounded surface.

The cross rod simply rests atop the ball bearing assemblys (not inside), in= this vertical
hanging mass or S-G type pendulum test setup.  The period of the mass = is 1.25 seconds
and the weight is ~ 1.75 pounds.  For this test, the ball bearings ass= emblys were resting
atop two aluminum support structures, and anchored at the contact point bet= ween the two,
with a glue.

The mass was offset 1/4" and allowed to oscillate freely, with no damp= ening of the mass.
The time duration of the visual mass oscillations movement is a rough indic= ator of the friction.

The first test was very encouraging for using these ball bearings assemblys= as the outer
two "rods" of the hinge, as the mass visually oscillated for 7 hours and 18 minutes, this
total time was the best I've seen in any test thus far.  No oil was us= ed to lubricate the
contact points.  If I can't visually see any oscillation from 2-3 feet= away...its "stopped"
as far as the timed oscillation test is concerned.

The second test used a drop of light oil at the contact junctions for lubri= cation.  That time
trial result was 7 hours and 3 minutes.  Perhaps, if the seismometer i= s operated in a
high humidity, or salt corrosive environment, it might be better to use jus= t alittle oil; to
avert any oxidation or rust effects.  Stainless steel doesn't mean tha= t it can't rust; its just
more rust resistant than other steels.

Precision ball bearings assemblys come in a wide range of diameters, widths= , and bore
hole inside diameters.  They are probably more commonly available than= is the stainless
steel cross rod that I used here.  Usually new assemblys can be quite = expensive.  However
I note that E-Bay had some 20 items in various quanities that appeared very= cheap per
each item, and other larger assemblys were much more expensive.  They = likely won't be
found in a common hardware store.  Most bearings I've seen in hardware= stores recently
are crudely made units and won't begin to work here.  It would be nice= to use new ball
bearings assemblys as they are surface free of marks. 

Old used precision ball bearings assemblys may have surface grime, or bake= d on deposits,
but probably will work after cleaning.  I would think a light hand san= ding/cleaning won't hurt
such, as they hardened steel to begin with.  Salvaging bearings from o= ld junk motors is
likely the most common "resource", but, they might be difficult t= o remove, unless one uses
bearing puller tool mechanisms.  Here, we don't care whether the beari= ng is "shot", we use
the outer rim.  The rim surfaces will never likely wear out, as the ro= d simply rolls on its
surface.

I can't think of any reason why outer ball bearings assemblys wouldn't work= for other cross
rod hinges in any type of seismometer.  They do allow for much greater= pressures, and mass
weights to be used.

Ball bearing assemblys with their center bore holes can be mounted rather r= eadily with
matching diameter bolts, on whatever type of orientation they could be used= for.  One could
mount a washer slightly larger than the diameter of the ball bearing assemb= ly (but not
touching the cross rod), on the mounting bolt; which could be kind of a saf= ety stop.  There
is likely a variety of mechanical ways to make assemblys with the two rods/= bearing surfaces
thereon.

The cross rod friction level can likely be reduced by sanding the rod in a = drill press or hand
drill with progressively finer grits of sandpaper, i.e., 400, 800, 1200, et= c., or using something
else smoother.

Take care, Meredith Lamb




Subject: Re: Cross rod hinge/suspensions; a trial of a stainless steel From: John or Jan Lahr JohnJan@........ Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 11:03:50 -0800 Hi Meredith, Could you post a photo of this setup? 7+ hours is quite impressive! Cheers, John At 07:59 AM 11/5/2005, you wrote: >The cross rod simply rests atop the ball bearing assemblys (not >inside), in this vertical >hanging mass or S-G type pendulum test setup. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Acouple web images and text of the ball bearings rims support "rods", of the test crossed rod hinge/suspension. From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 12:58:46 -0700 Hi all, I've put up on the web acouple photos of the simple table top/edge test mechanism I used to test the friction of this crossed rod hinge/suspension model, where the outer rim of precision ball bearing assemblys are used as the support "rods", of the crossed rod; that also has attached the boom/mass (pendulum) used. The pictures focus is on the bearings or the hinge and not the pendulum mass; which is roughly 14" down the boom away from the Tee cross rod joint. The cross rod on such a hinge, would rotate on the bearing rims both toward and away from th= e viewers pictures direction. Its most likely someone else has used such in the past, but I'am not aware of it at this time. See: http://home.earthlink.net/~meredithlamb.crbs.html The two photos lighting wasn't the best, but the pictures convey the idea fairly well. This isn't a actual operating seismometer, so be aware other (non cross rod touching) parts would have to be added...it is only a friction test of the crossed ro= d and the two ball bearing rims surfaces friction. Take care, Meredith Lamb Hi all,

I've put up on the web acouple photos of the simple table top/edge test mec= hanism
I used to test the friction of this crossed rod hinge/suspension model, whe= re the
outer rim of precision ball bearing assemblys are used as the support "= ;rods", of
the crossed rod; that also has attached the boom/mass (pendulum) used. = ; The
pictures focus is on the bearings or the hinge and not the pendulum mass; w= hich
is roughly 14" down the boom away from the Tee cross rod joint.  = The cross rod on
such a hinge, would rotate on the bearing rims both toward and away from th= e
viewers pictures direction.  Its most likely someone else has use= d such in the
past, but I'am not aware of it at this time.  See:

http://home= ..earthlink.net/~meredithlamb.crbs.html

The two photos lighting wasn't the best, but the pictures convey the idea f= airly well.

This isn't a actual operating seismometer, so be aware other (non cross rod= touching)
parts would have to be added...it is only a friction test of the crossed ro= d and the
two ball bearing rims surfaces friction.

Take care, Meredith Lamb

 
Subject: Re: Acouple web images and text of the ball bearings rims support "rods", of ... From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 15:05:53 EST In a message dated 05/11/05, paleoartifact@......... writes: > http://home.earthlink.net/~meredithlamb.crbs.html > This does not work. Hi there, The correct reference is: http://home.earthlink.net/~meredithlamb/crbs.html Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 05/11/05, paleoartifact@......... writes:

http://home.earthlink.net/~meredithlamb= ..crbs.html

   This does not work.

Hi there,

      The correct reference is:

      http://home.earthlink.net/~meredith= lamb/crbs.html  

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Cross rod hinge/suspensions; a trial of a stainless steel cross rod on the outer rim mounting diameter surfaces of two precision ball bearings assemblys. From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 13:32:08 -0700 Hi John and Chris, Thanks Chris for the URL correction...I'am rather good at messing such up..= . rather too frequently it seems....ha. John, you were working on a vertical awhile back with a interesting dual wire hinge setup on that. How is that coming along now? Verticals are alway= s much more difficult to built (and more sought after), and your model seems to be very sensitive. Take care, Meredith Lamb On 11/5/05, John or Jan Lahr wrote: > > Hi Meredith, > > Could you post a photo of this setup? 7+ hours is quite impressive! > > Cheers, > John > > > Hi John and Chris,

Thanks Chris for the URL correction...I'am rather good at messing such up..= ..
rather too frequently it seems....ha.

John,  you were working on a vertical awhile back with a interesting d= ual
wire hinge setup on that.  How is that coming along now?  Vertica= ls are always
much more difficult to built (and more sought after), and your model seems = to
be very sensitive.

Take care, Meredith Lamb

On 11/5/0= 5, John or Jan Lahr <JohnJan@........> wrote:
Hi Meredith,

Could you post a photo of this setup?  7+ hou= rs is quite impressive!

Cheers,
John



Subject: Brass plumbing compression tees, elbows; and their uses in amateur seismometer hinges/booms. From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2005 14:53:44 -0700 Hi all, Credit Chris Chapman for bringing to attention the use of plumbing brass tees, elbows; and hobby shop brass tubing some time back! They are VERY handy and useful for a variety of hinge/boom setups of various designs of seismometers! There is a new variation of such, which I believe is even more use variable= , that is coming out on the American market. Too review a plumbing compression tee, and the old style, go to: http://plumbing.hardwarestore.com/52-330-compression-tees.aspx On the upper left hand photo corner is a representative of the older style, that comes in a variety of tube/pipe sizes. Press/click, on the green "view options" oblong box. That box will show various sizes that will fit therein. Other tees, can come in various other configurations to reduce, etc., the sizes. These tees are unlike most plumbing "sizes" are they are instead a more exact size of the tube/rod used; i.e., plus or minus afew thousandths of a inch. Hence, a common hobby (or hardware store) with a K&S precision brass tube of say, 1/4" diameter, can be easily compression fitted into a like diameter compression tee. I've failed to find a good representative web image of the new style. Basically it looks like the old style, except, the new style will have what looks lik= e a small loose brass tube protruding aways from the ends of the tees and angles opening holes. I've found such at Home Depot (chain) stores. No...Ace Hardware (chain) only has the old style at the present. I've used both varietys of tees for my recent hinge/suspension tests. The old style will work for joining a rod to a boom where two hinge contacts were needed. The new variety is more variable in that it can be used for both a double contact hinge, and/or, for containment of a ball bearing, should one wish to use such for a seismometer hinge/suspension. For a ball bearing use; the little loose tube is extracted from the assembly and is turned around, and inserted into the compression nut end, where the broad funnel shaped end goes over the slightly extruded lip of the new tee variety. By lightly pressing down, the small tube will lightly lock (click) onto the extruded lip of the inner compression mechanism. I simply put various ball bearings in the "funnel", and held it while turning it over to mount o= n a variety of test contact surfaces. For your ball bearing use; it can of course be glued down with epoxy or whatever, and will likely hold the position quite well. Similar elbows, with the same small tube therein can of course be adopted for ball bearings setups (or two contact hinges) where other boom configurations may be more desireable. Use of these tees and elbows isn't a totally alignment free method, as the internal oval shaped compression loose tubes is designed to give a variety of angles to fit together. You will have to make sure your directional alignment with an= y boom is correct for your design. If it isn't, unscrewing the nut will allow readjustments, then tighten the nut/s again. On the sides of these tees and elbows there i= s a flat area, which with whatever other fixtures you wish to use, can be anchored down on a like flat surface, clamped, adjusted, and then have the nuts tightened; the alignment/s will be much better this way. Use of the 3 outlet/inlet compression tees, for a double hinge, or say, a crossed rod hinge/suspension assembly, should entail drilling out the internal bras= s that obstructs your rod going entirely through the parallel openings for which i= t will be used; then, installing the internal oval compression ring and/or nut...just to retain the straight shape of the rod. With the new tee variety, the compression locking mechanism is lightly attached to the compression nut itself. If you don't drill and just use the separate ends to install acouple separate rods, they will be assuredly not aligned...and your double hinge, or crossed rod hinge may suffer somewhat from that misalignment effect. Yes, they are alittle work, but alot less than trying to homebrew your own "T" joints. Take care, Meredith Lamb Hi all,

Credit Chris Chapman for bringing to attention the use of plumbing brass te= es,
elbows; and hobby shop brass tubing some time back!  They are VERY han= dy
and useful for a variety of hinge/boom setups of various designs of seismom= eters!

There is a new variation of such, which I believe is even more use variable= , that
is coming out on the American market.

Too review a plumbing compression tee, and the old style, go to:

= http://plumbing.hardwarestore.com/52-330-compression-tees.aspx

On the upper left hand photo corner is a representative of the older style,= that
comes in a variety of tube/pipe sizes.  Press/click, on the green &quo= t;view options"
oblong box.  That box will show various sizes that will fit therein.&n= bsp; Other tees,
can come in various other configurations to reduce, etc., the sizes.  = These tees
are unlike most plumbing "sizes" are they are instead a more exac= t size of the
tube/rod used; i.e., plus or minus afew thousandths of a inch.  Hence,= a
common hobby (or hardware store) with a K&S precision brass tube of say= ,
1/4" diameter, can be easily compression fitted into a like diameter c= ompression
tee.

I've failed to find a good representative web image of the new style. = Basically
it looks like the old style, except, the new style will have what looks lik= e a  small
loose brass tube protruding aways from the ends of the tees and angles open= ing
holes.  I've found such at Home Depot (chain) stores.  No...Ace H= ardware (chain)
only has the old style at the present.

I've used both varietys of tees for my recent hinge/suspension tests. = The old
style will work for joining a rod to a boom where two hinge contacts were n= eeded.

The new variety is more variable in that it can be used for both a double c= ontact
hinge, and/or, for containment of a ball bearing, should one wish to use su= ch for
a seismometer hinge/suspension.  For a ball bearing use; the little lo= ose tube is
extracted from the assembly and is turned around, and inserted into the com= pression
nut end, where the broad funnel shaped end goes over the slightly extruded = lip of
the new tee variety.  By lightly pressing down, the small tube will li= ghtly lock (click)
onto the extruded lip of the inner compression mechanism.  I simply pu= t various
ball bearings in the "funnel", and held it while turning it over = to mount on a variety
of test contact surfaces.  For your ball bearing use; it can of course= be glued down
with epoxy or whatever, and will likely hold the position quite well. = Similar elbows,
with the same small tube therein can of course be adopted for ball bearings= setups
(or two contact hinges) where other boom configurations may be more desirea= ble.

Use of these tees and elbows isn't a totally alignment free method, as the = internal
oval shaped compression loose tubes is designed to give a variety of angles= to
fit together.  You will have to make sure your directional alignment w= ith any boom
is correct for your design.  If it isn't, unscrewing the nut will allo= w readjustments,
then tighten the nut/s again.  On the sides of these tees and elbows t= here is a
flat area, which with whatever other fixtures you wish to use, can be ancho= red
down on a like flat surface, clamped, adjusted, and then have the nuts tigh= tened;
the alignment/s will be much better this way.

Use of the 3 outlet/inlet compression tees, for a double hinge, or say, a c= rossed
rod hinge/suspension assembly, should entail drilling out the internal bras= s that
obstructs your rod going entirely through the parallel openings for which i= t will be
used; then, installing the internal oval compression ring and/or nut...just= to retain
the straight shape of the rod.  With the new tee variety, the compress= ion locking
mechanism is lightly attached to the compression nut itself.  If you d= on't drill and
just use the separate ends to install acouple separate rods, they will be a= ssuredly
not aligned...and your double hinge, or crossed rod hinge may suffer somewh= at
from that misalignment effect.  Yes, they are alittle work, but alot l= ess than trying
to homebrew your own "T" joints.

Take care, Meredith Lamb


Subject: Re: Acouple web images and text of the ball bearings rims support From: John Popelish jpopelish@........ Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2005 21:26:19 -0500 ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > The correct reference is: > > http://home.earthlink.net/~meredithlamb/crbs.html > All this discussion of using parts from ball bearings as hinge bearings, and it finally dawns on me that people ate talking about everything except the surfaces that are made precisely as low friction bearing surfaces. I haven't yet gotten my seismometer completed, but here is how I built my hinges. I sawed a small (3/4 inch O.D.) ball bearing outer race in half with a moto cut off wheel and used the two halves as one side of the each of the hinge bearings. I dimpled a piece of aluminum and epoxied a ball from the same bearing into the dimple as the other bearing surface. The lower bearing (in compression) is just the half outer race epoxied to the head of a bolt with the groove facing out and the groove vertical. The matching half is a bullet nosed piece of aluminum with a dimple in the end and the ball in the dimple. The upper bearing is made with the other half of the outer race epoxied to a small slice of aluminum U channel so that it completes a loop. The part that holds the ball is slotted with the dimple in the inside of the slot, so it can pull on the ball. The channel slice has a hole for a mounting bolt, opposite the half of the bearing race. The groove is horizontal. This combination seems very stable but also self aligning to some extent to allow for sloppy tolerances in the match between the boom and the base. This hinge makes use of the exquisitely precise, smooth and hard surfaces intended to carry load in the original bearing. I hope to get around to testing the design soon, but life keeps getting in the way. I don't have a web page set up yet, either, but if anyone is interested, having trouble understanding my description and emails me with their address, I will take some photos and send them to you. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Acouple web images and text of the ball bearings rims support "rods", of ... From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 00:24:41 -0700 Hi John, I tried the same setup in September and early October of this year. Try a smaller ball bearing than the race was made for; that will mean alot less contact friction. A same size ball bearing as the race, means multiple meta= l contacts therein; for both your hinges...and, the different ball bearing/race "sections" will have to be set rather precisely (apart) together; otherwise you get more friction from that (potential offset) stress contact. I used a more brutal ball bearing "disection" method than you used. A big vice, will crack small ball bearing assemblys fairly easily, and in fair alignment with where they contact the vice jaws. Use a cloth, under and over the bearing assembly before applying pressure. Subsequent vice pressure can reduce the 1/2 sections, to 1/4 sections fast. The best ball bearing/s on various mounting surfaces I tried could only get up to 4 hours of free oscillations, for a 2" mass offset, with it setup as a hanging vertical pendulum, or S-G. I found that nearly flat ground, polished glass optical lenses surfaces were better than bearing races for less friction. Take care, Meredith Lamb On 11/5/05, John Popelish wrote: > > ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > > The correct reference is: > > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~meredithlamb/crbs.html > > > > All this discussion of using parts from ball bearings as hinge > bearings, and it finally dawns on me that people ate talking about > everything except the surfaces that are made precisely as low friction > bearing surfaces. > > clip..... Hi John,

I tried the same setup in September and early October of this year.  T= ry
a smaller ball bearing than the race was made for; that will mean alot less=
contact friction.  A same size ball bearing as the race, means multipl= e metal
contacts therein; for both your hinges...and, the different ball bearing/ra= ce
"sections" will have to be set rather precisely (apart) together;= otherwise
you get more friction from that (potential offset) stress contact.

I used a more brutal ball bearing "disection" method than you use= d.  A
big vice, will crack small ball bearing assemblys fairly easily, and in
fair alignment with where they contact the vice jaws.  Use a cloth, un= der
and over the bearing assembly before applying pressure.  Subsequent vice pressure can reduce the 1/2 sections, to 1/4 sections fast.

The best ball bearing/s on various mounting surfaces I tried could only
get up to 4 hours of free oscillations, for a 2" mass offset, with it = setup
as a hanging vertical pendulum, or S-G.  I found that nearly flat grou= nd,
polished glass optical lenses surfaces were better than bearing races
for less friction. 

Take care, Meredith Lamb


On 11/5/05, John Popelish <jpopelish@r= ica.net> wrote:
ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote:
&nbs= p; >        The correct ref= erence is:
>
>        <= a href=3D"http://home.earthlink.net/~meredithlamb/crbs.html">http://home.ea= rthlink.net/~meredithlamb/crbs.html
>

All this discussion of using parts from ball bearings a= s hinge
bearings, and it finally dawns on me that people ate talking abo= ut
everything except the surfaces that are made precisely as low frictio= n
bearing surfaces.

clip.....

Subject: Re: Acouple web images and text of the ball bearings rims support "rods", of ... From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 08:58:12 EST In a message dated 06/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes: > All this discussion of using parts from ball bearings as hinge bearings, > and it finally dawns on me that people are talking about everything except the > surfaces that are made precisely as low friction bearing surfaces. > > I haven't yet gotten my seismometer completed, but here is how I built > my hinges. > > I sawed a small (3/4 inch O.D.) ball bearing outer race in half with a > moto cut off wheel and used the two halves as one side of the each of > the hinge bearings. I dimpled a piece of aluminum and epoxied a ball > from the same bearing into the dimple as the other bearing surface. Hi John, The hinge angle is defined by the contact on the spherical ball and more especially by the centre of curvature of the ball. If you mount the ball on the arm, you will have a major reset up job any time that the arm is dismounted / moved. > The lower bearing (in compression) is just the half outer race epoxied > to the head of a bolt with the groove facing out and the groove > vertical. The matching half is a bullet nosed piece of aluminum with > a dimple in the end and the ball in the dimple. It is much better to mount both balls on the fixed vertical support beam. The vertical axis is then defined by the centres of the balls. This keeps the side to side zero adjustment fairly constant. The ground radius of curvature of the track is not usually much larger than that of the ball. As the arm swings from side to side the ball will tend to ride up the fairly sharp curvature of the track. This will most probably tend to give a strong centring moment to the arm - it may well not swing freely or have a fixed period. > The upper bearing is made with the other half of the outer race > epoxied to a small slice of aluminum U channel so that it completes a > loop. The part that holds the ball is slotted with the dimple in the > inside of the slot, so it can pull on the ball. The channel slice has > a hole for a mounting bolt, opposite the half of the bearing race. > The groove is horizontal. With one groove horizontal and the other vertical, the ball bearings will be seeing surfaces with dramatically different rates of curvature. This is very likely to effect the balance setting, the freedom to swing and the period. > This combination seems very stable but also self aligning to some extent to > allow for sloppy tolerances in the match between the boom and the base. I would expect it to be extremely stable, but the whole point about a seismometer arm is that it should swing completely freely and NOT be constrained by the curvature of the support! > This hinge makes use of the exquisitely precise, smooth and hard > surfaces intended to carry load in the original bearing. I hope to > get around to testing the design soon, but life keeps getting in the way. I doubt if it will give you the results that you want, for the reasons that I have stated, but do try it out and let us know the results! Have a 'do it now campaign'? You might just 'get away with it' if you used a very much smaller diameter balls in the ground outer bearing track and aligned both tracks horizontally? > I don't have a web page set up yet, either, but if anyone is > interested, having trouble understanding my description and emails me > If these are ordinary bearings and not stainless steel, you will need to put a drop of light oil on the contact point (clock oil?) and make an overlapped paper screen around the joint to prevent the oil from collecting dust. Good Luck! Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 06/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes:

All this discussion of usin= g parts from ball bearings as hinge bearings, and it finally dawns on me tha= t people are talking about everything except the surfaces that are made prec= isely as low friction bearing surfaces.

I haven't yet gotten my seismometer completed, but here is how I built=20
my hinges.

I sawed a small (3/4 inch O.D.) ball bearing outer race in half with a=20
moto cut off wheel and used the two halves as one side of the each of=20
the hinge bearings.  I dimpled a piece of aluminum and epoxied a ba= ll=20
from the same bearing into the dimple as the other bearing surface.

Hi John,

      The hinge angle is defined by the c= ontact on the spherical ball and more especially by the centre of curvature=20= of the ball. If you mount the ball on the arm, you will have a major reset u= p job any time that the arm is dismounted / moved.

The lower bearing (in compr= ession) is just the half outer race epoxied=20
to the head of a bolt with the groove facing out and the groove=20
vertical. The matching half is a bullet nosed piece of aluminum with=20
a dimple in the end and the ball in the dimple.


        It is much better to= mount both balls on the fixed vertical support beam. The vertical axis is t= hen defined by the centres of the balls. This keeps the side to side zero ad= justment fairly constant.

   The ground radius of curvature of the track is not us= ually much larger than that of the ball. As the arm swings from side to side= the ball will tend to ride up the fairly sharp curvature of the track. This= will most probably tend to give a strong centring moment to the arm - it ma= y well not swing freely or have a fixed period.  

The upper bearing is made w= ith the other half of the outer race=20
epoxied to a small slice of aluminum U channel so that it completes a=20
loop.  The part that holds the ball is slotted with the dimple in t= he=20
inside of the slot, so it can pull on the ball.  The channel slice=20= has=20
a hole for a mounting bolt, opposite the half of the bearing race.=20
The groove is horizontal.


      With one groove horizontal and t= he other vertical, the ball bearings will be seeing surfaces with dramatical= ly different rates of curvature. This is very likely to effect the balance s= etting, the freedom to swing and the period.

This combination seems very= stable but also self aligning to some extent to allow for sloppy tolerances= in the match between the boom and the base.


      I would expect it to be extremel= y stable, but the whole point about a seismometer arm is that it should swin= g completely freely and NOT be constrained by the curvature of the support!=20

This hinge makes use of the= exquisitely precise, smooth and hard=20
surfaces intended to carry load in the original bearing.  I hope to= =20
get around to testing the design soon, but life keeps getting in the way= ..


      I doubt if it will give you the=20= results that you want, for the reasons that I have stated, but do try it=20= out and let us know the results! Have a 'do it now campaign'?

   You might just 'get away with it' if you used a ve= ry much smaller diameter balls in the ground outer bearing track and aligned= both tracks horizontally?

I don't have a web page=20= set up yet, either, but if anyone is=20
interested, having trouble understanding my description and emails me=20
with their address, I will take some photos and send them to you.

      If these are ordinary bearings and=20= not stainless steel, you will need to put a drop of light oil on the contact= point (clock oil?) and make an overlapped paper screen around the joint to=20= prevent the oil from collecting dust.

      Good Luck!

      Chris Chapman
Subject: balls From: Gordon Couger gcouger@.......... Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 12:51:50 -0600 ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > In a message dated 06/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes: > >> All this discussion of using parts from ball bearings as hinge >> bearings, and it finally dawns on me that people are talking about >> everything except the surfaces that are made precisely as low friction >> bearing surfaces. >> >> I sawed a small (3/4 inch O.D.) ball bearing outer race in half with a >> moto cut off wheel and used the two halves as one side of the each of >> the hinge bearings. I dimpled a piece of aluminum and epoxied a ball >> from the same bearing into the dimple as the other bearing surface. > If these are ordinary bearings and not stainless steel, you will > need to put a drop of light oil on the contact point (clock oil?) and > make an overlapped paper screen around the joint to prevent the oil from > collecting dust. > Chris Chapman Hi Chris There are several materials that I would consider if I were using a ball bearing for a pivot. Ultra High Density Polyethylene for one bearing surface and a stainless steel, sapphire or ruby ball for bearing. Using this chart on Coefficient for Static Friction http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-frictioncoefficient.htm a sapphire of tungsten carbide ball on a polyethylene seat look petty good. The UHDPET would need to be pretty thin and backed by a rigid surface so the ball didn't creep into it and make a round socket that increased the friction. To over come the creep problem using a tungsten carbide tool insert with a screw hole in it as a socket http://www.jjjtrain.com/vms/Media/glossary_c/carbide.jpg and a sapphire ball may make a better bearing but the sharp edge of the hole in the tungsten carbide tool much be lapped smooth. Gordon Couger Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: balls From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 14:53:47 EST In a message dated 06/11/05, gcouger@.......... writes: > There are several materials that I would consider if I were using a ball > bearing for a pivot. Ultra High Density Polyethylene for one bearing > surface and a stainless steel, sapphire or ruby ball for bearing. > > Using this chart on Coefficient for Static Friction > http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-frictioncoefficient.htm a sapphire or > tungsten carbide ball on a polyethylene seat look petty good. Hi Gordon, Thanks for the interesting table. We don't need a very high frictional coefficient, but we do need the surfaces to be non welding, non reactive, very hard and to be able to take quite a high load elastically. For instance, if you use ordinary unlubricated ball bearings, you eventually end up with a 'stuck' suspension and a very small pile of rust. > The UHDPET would need to be pretty thin and backed by a rigid surface so > the ball didn't creep into it and make a round socket that increased the > friction. To over come the creep problem using a tungsten carbide tool > insert with a screw hole in it as a socket > http://www.jjjtrain.com/vms/Media/glossary_c/carbide.jpg and a sapphire > ball may make a better bearing but the sharp edge of the hole in the > tungsten carbide tool much be lapped smooth. This is a problem that 'you don't need to have'! You look for carbide triangular turning inserts without a central hole, with sides of about 0.3". These will polish up nicely with some diamond paste and cost maybe $3. Stainless steel ball bearings seem to work very well. You can buy just the balls - you don't need to buy a bearing! Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 06/11/05, gcouger@.......... writes:

There are several materials= that I would consider if I were using a ball=20
bearing for a pivot. Ultra High Density Polyethylene for one bearing=20
surface and a stainless steel, sapphire or ruby ball for bearing.

Using this chart on Coefficient for Static Friction=20
http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-frictioncoefficient.htm a sapphire=20= or=20
tungsten carbide ball on a polyethylene seat look petty good.


Hi Gordon,

      Thanks for the interesting table. W= e don't need a very high frictional coefficient, but we do need the surfaces= to be non welding, non reactive, very hard and to be able to take quite a h= igh load elastically. For instance, if you use ordinary unlubricated ball be= arings, you eventually end up with a 'stuck' suspension and a very small pil= e of rust.

The UHDPET would need to be= pretty thin and backed by a rigid surface so=20
the ball didn't creep into it and make a round socket that increased the= =20
friction. To over come the creep problem using a tungsten carbide tool=20
insert with a screw hole in it as a socket=20
http://www.jjjtrain.com/vms/Media/glossary_c/carbide.jpg and a sapphire=20
ball may make a better bearing but the sharp edge of the hole in the=20
tungsten carbide tool much be lapped smooth.


      This is a problem that 'you don't n= eed to have'! You look for carbide triangular turning inserts without a cent= ral hole, with sides of about 0.3". These will polish up nicely with some di= amond paste and cost maybe $3.=20

      Stainless steel ball bearings seem=20= to work very well. You can buy just the balls - you don't need to buy a bear= ing!

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Acouple web images and text of the ball bearings rims support From: John Popelish jpopelish@........ Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2005 15:11:23 -0500 ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > In a message dated 06/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes: (snip) >>The upper bearing is made with the other half of the outer race >>epoxied to a small slice of aluminum U channel so that it completes a >>loop. The part that holds the ball is slotted with the dimple in the >>inside of the slot, so it can pull on the ball. The channel slice has >>a hole for a mounting bolt, opposite the half of the bearing race. >>The groove is horizontal. > > > With one groove horizontal and the other vertical, the ball bearings > will be seeing surfaces with dramatically different rates of curvature. This is > very likely to effect the balance setting, the freedom to swing and the > period. Yes, I agree. Both groves should be horizontal so the balls roll along the grove, instead of scuffing across it. (snip) >>This hinge makes use of the exquisitely precise, smooth and hard >>surfaces intended to carry load in the original bearing. I hope to >>get around to testing the design soon, but life keeps getting in the way. > > > I doubt if it will give you the results that you want, for the reasons > that I have stated, but do try it out and let us know the results! Have a 'do > it now campaign'? Easier said than done, but I will let you know the result of this experiment as soon as it happens. > You might just 'get away with it' if you used a very much smaller > diameter balls in the ground outer bearing track and aligned both tracks horizontally? The balls are about 1/16th inch diameter, now. > If these are ordinary bearings and not stainless steel, you will need > to put a drop of light oil on the contact point (clock oil?) and make an > overlapped paper screen around the joint to prevent the oil from collecting dust. The balls roll such a small part of a degree for the full +- 1/4 inch of boom end movement that I will probably just sit them in a blob of grease. This will keep dust out of the contact points. It will absorb a little energy as the boom swings, but a lot less than I will have to absorb, elsewhere, to achieve the desired damping. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Acouple web images and text of the ball bearings rims support "rods", of ... From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 15:32:52 EST In a message dated 06/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes: > The balls are about 1/16th inch diameter, now. > Hi John, If you buy BIC pens, they have a 1 mm dia (0.0394") carbide ball already fitted in a nice cone shaped brass holder, the shank tube 2.2mm dia x 10.9 mm long. You remove the plastic case and the ink tube and clean them with methylated spirits. I use 5 mm dia stainless steel bearings on a solid triangular tungsten carbide turning tool bit. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 06/11/05, jpopelish@........ writes:

The balls are about 1/16th=20= inch diameter, now.

Hi John,

      If you buy BIC pens, they have a 1=20= mm dia (0.0394") carbide ball already fitted in a nice cone shaped brass hol= der, the shank tube 2.2mm dia x 10.9 mm long. You remove the plastic case an= d the ink tube and clean them with methylated spirits.

      I use 5 mm dia stainless steel bear= ings on a solid triangular tungsten carbide turning tool bit.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson From: "Charles R. Patton" charles.r.patton@........ Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 08:32:13 -0800 John hit upon the very question I have had since the beginning of this discussion. I love the discussion and the simple tests for getting to the low friction combinations, but once the hinge friction (which multi-hour swinging certainly qualifies) is significantly below the level you'll use for damping even the longest period pendulum, then I would think other considerations are more important such as the stability and robustness of the hinge against large side forces (read big quake such as those in California are prone to) displacing the hinge point, changing the geometry, and hence the functionality of the pendulum. On a pure geometry basis, the hinge point is the means by which the frame moves, moving the pivot point, leaving the bob weight stationary (on a instantaneous basis). Insufficient side friction, and this goes badly awry. Which is why I always perk up when the discussions hinges (pun intended) around the Rollamite, crossed leaf hinges, etc. These have very large stability (are rigid) against side forces. I was especially impressed with the crossed wire discussion a few days ago. The thing that always bothered me about all those flexible hinge types is discerning the actually hinge rotation point/tragetory. Brett Norden has done excellent work figuring out some of them. I've been too lazy to project the consequences into the seismometer suspensions. The question is that if the point of rotation travels, then does it do so in such a way to lead to stability or un-stability (longer period) swings, i.e., what is the longest period (or largest swing) possible before it might go unstable? Rollamites are probably subject to another problem which is dust collection, but the crossed wire 'Rollamite" version would be almost immune, again why I thought that was an interesting suspension. The downside of that suspension would seem to be the orthoganol unstability, i.e., the hinge is relatively rigid in the plane of the rotation, but the orthogonal axis is another hinge with a different period potentially making the seismometer sensitive to another axis (if using some versions of coil/magnet motion sensors.) Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it would seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard that generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are different. I'm not a tribologist, but I'm sure this extends to the application of the ball point rolling on a surface, type bearing, too. Just some idle musings. Regards, Charles Patton John Popelish wrote: > ..... It will absorb a little energy as the boom swings, but a lot > less than I will have to absorb, elsewhere, to achieve the desired > damping. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson From: John Popelish jpopelish@........ Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 11:56:53 -0500 Charles R. Patton wrote: > John hit upon the very question I have had since the beginning of this > discussion. I love the discussion and the simple tests for getting to > the low friction combinations, but once the hinge friction (which > multi-hour swinging certainly qualifies) is significantly below the > level you'll use for damping even the longest period pendulum, then I > would think other considerations are more important such as the > stability and robustness of the hinge against large side forces (read > big quake such as those in California are prone to) displacing the hinge > point, changing the geometry, and hence the functionality of the > pendulum. That's the way it looks to me, as long as the friction of the hinge is proportional to velocity, not position (fluid friction, not lumpiness of the force versus position). > On a pure geometry basis, the hinge point is the means by > which the frame moves, moving the pivot point, leaving the bob weight > stationary (on a instantaneous basis). Insufficient side friction, and > this goes badly awry. A good reason to minimize boom mass, at least on the hinge end. And it makes those units with huge, massive basses light up question marks in my brain. Why do they make the moving part of the device so massive? > Which is why I always perk up when the > discussions hinges (pun intended) around the Rollamite, crossed leaf > hinges, etc. These have very large stability (are rigid) against side > forces. I was especially impressed with the crossed wire discussion a > few days ago. The thing that always bothered me about all those > flexible hinge types is discerning the actually hinge rotation > point/tragetory. Brett Norden has done excellent work figuring out some > of them. I've been too lazy to project the consequences into the > seismometer suspensions. The question is that if the point of rotation > travels, then does it do so in such a way to lead to stability or > un-stability (longer period) swings, i.e., what is the longest period > (or largest swing) possible before it might go unstable? Rollamites are > probably subject to another problem which is dust collection, Yes, that dreaded lumpiness. > but the > crossed wire 'Rollamite" version would be almost immune, again why I > thought that was an interesting suspension. The downside of that > suspension would seem to be the orthoganol unstability, i.e., the hinge > is relatively rigid in the plane of the rotation, but the orthogonal > axis is another hinge with a different period potentially making the > seismometer sensitive to another axis (if using some versions of > coil/magnet motion sensors.) The biggest weakness of the ball and half race hinge I mentioned is that the ball might slide along the race instead of rolling, changing the side tilt of the hinge line, and so, shift the stable position of the mass. Here in Virginia, I doubt that it will ever experience a large enough vibration to cause that, but in California, it probably isn't stable enough. > Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it > would seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've > heard that generally sliding surface bearings are better if the > materials are different. Iron and gold are known for not sticking together. > I'm not a tribologist, but I'm sure this > extends to the application of the ball point rolling on a surface, type > bearing, too. > > Just some idle musings. Regards, > Charles Patton Thanks for those. > > > John Popelish wrote: > >> ..... It will absorb a little energy as the boom swings, but a lot >> less than I will have to absorb, elsewhere, to achieve the desired >> damping. >> > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson From: "Wayne" wandc@....... Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 08:57:25 -0800 Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it would > seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard that > generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are > different. Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to choosing materials with low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for ease of subsequent maintenance. That is, if the same bearing material were used for both surfaces, both bearing parts would wear away at pretty much the same rate. With differing materials having different wear rates, only one half of of the bearing would need to be replaced. This could be useful in those circumstances where "half" of the bearing is more readily accesible, but the other "half" is not. Don't know if this wear/replacement business has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, however. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 15:53:55 EST In a message dated 07/11/05, charles.r.patton@........ writes: > I love the discussion and the simple tests for getting to > the low friction combinations, but once the hinge friction (which > multi-hour swinging certainly qualifies) is significantly below the > level you'll use for damping even the longest period pendulum, then I > would think other considerations are more important such as the > stability and robustness of the hinge against large side forces (read > big quake such as those in California are prone to) displacing the hinge > point, changing the geometry, and hence the functionality of the > pendulum. Hi Charles, Yes and no. Some hard measurements to suppliment design decisions and investigate problems are very welcome. One factor which limits very long period seismometer suspensions is non elastic / anelastic effects. No one is surprised to be able to bend a strip of say 1/2" x 1/16" mild steel. If you try the same with a strip of hardened high carbon steel, it flexes, but then springs back when the bending force is released - very nearly, but not quite 100%. And it does so in tiny jumps which can be detected using a piezo crystal in good contact with the metal - bending mild steel is not a 'smooth' operation - it is the sum of millions of tiny steps. On a pure geometry basis, the hinge point is the means by > which the frame moves, moving the pivot point, leaving the bob weight > stationary (on a instantaneous basis). Insufficient side friction, and this goes > badly awry. Which is why I always perk up when the discussions hinges (pun > Rigidity is OK. Damping is OK. If you get ANY friction, you are likely in trouble. These have very large stability (are rigid) against side forces. I was especially > impressed with the crossed wire discussion a few days ago. The thing that > always bothered me about all those flexible hinge types is discerning the > actually hinge rotation point/tragetory. Brett Norden has done excellent work > figuring out some of them. The question is that if the point of rotation > travels, then does it do so in such a way to lead to stability or un-stability > See also Re: Crossed wire suspensions - more analysis Date: 25/10/05 To PSN Long period swing problems may be related to the design of the suspension, the stability and levelling of the apparatus, or to anelastic behavoir of the hinge materials. The Australian Folded Pendulums were reported working out to 90 sec. using 7 foils. It is more usual these days to use a force balance technique to the extend the period electronically. A factor of x10 should be relatively easy to achieve. Rollamites are > probably subject to another problem which is dust collection, but the > crossed wire 'Rollamite" version would be almost immune, again why I thought that > was an interesting suspension. The downside of that suspension would seem to > be the orthoganol unstability, i.e., the hinge is relatively rigid in the > plane of the rotation, but the orthogonal axis is another hinge with a different > period potentially You can design a shield making the system virtually immune to dust. You need to mechanically design your suspension system to cope with fairly strong motions and to return to it's original setting after a disturbance. If you are in a region subject to severe quakes, it is usual to have a 'strong motion' sensor. No seismometer is completely indestructable. > Oh yes, one other point about points on surfaces, it would seem to me that > mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard that generally sliding > surface bearings are better if the materials are different I'm not a > tribologist, but I'm sure this extends to the application of the ball point rolling on > Not particularly, so far as I know as applied to seismometers. If you use say bare steel, you can get contact welding by compressing / rubbing the surfaces together. You may also get stress / frictional activation of a surface leading to oxidation / corrosion. Engine and other oils contain 'extreme pressure additives'. These may be organic phosphorous compounds and any exposed metal surface immediatly reacts giving it a protective surface layer just atoms thick. This normally prevents welding. There are some particular lubricated plain bearing combinations, like bronze on steel, which give a very long life, but this is not applicable to seismometers. Bronze is not a very hard alloy, but the surface can work harden in the extreme. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 07/11/05, charles.r.patton@........ writes:

I love the discussion and t= he simple tests for getting to=20
the low friction combinations, but once the hinge friction (which=20
multi-hour swinging certainly qualifies) is significantly below the=20
level you'll use for damping even the longest period pendulum, then I=20
would think other considerations are more important such as the=20
stability and robustness of the hinge against large side forces (read=20
big quake such as those in California are prone to) displacing the hinge= =20
point, changing the geometry, and hence the functionality of the=20
pendulum.  


Hi Charles,

      Yes and no. Some hard measurements=20= to suppliment design decisions and investigate problems are very welcome.=20
      One factor which limits very long p= eriod seismometer suspensions is non elastic / anelastic effects. No one is=20= surprised to be able to bend a strip of say 1/2" x 1/16" mild steel. If you=20= try the same with a strip of hardened high carbon steel, it flexes, but then= springs back when the bending force is released - very nearly, but not quit= e 100%. And it does so in tiny jumps which can be detected using a piezo cry= stal in good contact with the metal - bending mild steel is not a 'smooth' o= peration - it is the sum of millions of tiny steps.

On a pure geometry basis, the hinge point is the means by=20
which the frame moves, movi= ng the pivot point, leaving the bob weight stationary (on a instantaneous ba= sis). Insufficient side friction, and this goes badly awry. Which is why I a= lways perk up when the discussions hinges (pun intended) around the Rollamit= e, crossed leaf hinges, etc.


      Rigidity is OK. Damping is OK. If y= ou get ANY friction, you are likely in trouble.

These have very large stability (are rigid) against side forces. I was e= specially=20
impressed with the crossed=20= wire discussion a few days ago. The thing that always bothered me about all=20= those flexible hinge types is discerning the actually hinge rotation point/t= ragetory. Brett Norden has done excellent work figuring out some of them. Th= e question is that if the point of rotation travels, then does it do so in s= uch a way to lead to stability or un-stability swings, i.e., what is the lon= gest period possible before it might go unstable?


      See also Re: Crossed wire suspensio= ns - more analysis Date: 25/10/05 To PSN=20

      Long period swing problems may be r= elated to the design of the suspension, the stability and levelling of the a= pparatus, or to anelastic behavoir of the hinge materials. The Australian Fo= lded Pendulums were reported working out to 90 sec. using 7 foils. It is mor= e usual these days to use a force balance technique to the extend the period= electronically. A factor of x10 should be relatively easy to achieve.

Rollamites are=20
probably subject to another= problem which is dust collection, but the crossed wire 'Rollamite" version=20= would be almost immune, again why I thought that was an interesting suspensi= on. The downside of that suspension would seem to be the orthoganol unstabil= ity, i.e., the hinge is relatively rigid in the plane of the rotation, but t= he orthogonal axis is another hinge with a different period potentially &nbs= p;making the seismometer sensitive to another axis


      You can design a shield making the=20= system virtually immune to dust.=20

      You need to mechanically design you= r suspension system to cope with fairly strong motions and to return to it's= original setting after a disturbance. If you are in a region subject to sev= ere quakes, it is usual to have a 'strong motion' sensor. No seismometer is=20= completely indestructable.=20

Oh yes, one other point abo= ut points on surfaces, it would seem to me that mixing material is a good id= ea. I belive I've heard that generally sliding surface bearings are better i= f the materials are different  I'm not a tribologist, but I'm sure this= extends to the application of the ball point rolling on a surface, type bea= ring, too.

 
    Not particularly, so far as I know as applied t= o seismometers. If you use say bare steel, you can get contact welding by co= mpressing / rubbing the surfaces together. You may also get stress / frictio= nal activation of a surface leading to oxidation / corrosion. Engine and oth= er oils contain 'extreme pressure additives'. These may be organic phosphoro= us compounds and any exposed metal surface immediatly reacts giving it a pro= tective surface layer just atoms thick. This normally prevents welding.
      There are some particular lubricate= d plain bearing combinations, like bronze on steel, which give a very long l= ife, but this is not applicable to seismometers. Bronze is not a very hard a= lloy, but the surface can work harden in the extreme.=20

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Stress and Press From: "KATHRYN ROBERTS" KROBERTS23@............... Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 19:55:55 -0500 Hi. What is the optimal length for the hinge? The ones i've seen on this list all have very short hinges. Would there be a benfit to using perhaps a one centimeter gap between the frame and the boom or pendulum? The upper and lower hinges can both be in tension, or both in compression or one of each. i don't thing longer/wider gapped hinges will work in compression. Come to think of it, i haven't won any prizes for thinking. geofff<>< ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles R. Patton" To: Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 11:32 AM Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > John hit upon the very question I have had since the beginning of this > discussion. I love the discussion and the simple tests for getting to the > low friction combinations, but once the hinge friction (which multi-hour > swinging certainly qualifies) is significantly below the level you'll use > for damping even the longest period pendulum, then I would think other > considerations are more important such as the stability and robustness of > the hinge against large side forces (read big quake such as those in > California are prone to) displacing the hinge point, changing the > geometry, and hence the functionality of the pendulum. On a pure geometry > basis, the hinge point is the means by which the frame moves, moving the > pivot point, leaving the bob weight stationary (on a instantaneous basis). > Insufficient side friction, and this goes badly awry. Which is why I > always perk up when the discussions hinges (pun intended) around the > Rollamite, crossed leaf hinges, etc. These have very large stability (are > rigid) against side forces. I was especially impressed with the crossed > wire discussion a few days ago. The thing that always bothered me about > all those flexible hinge types is discerning the actually hinge rotation > point/tragetory. Brett Norden has done excellent work figuring out some > of them. I've been too lazy to project the consequences into the > seismometer suspensions. The question is that if the point of rotation > travels, then does it do so in such a way to lead to stability or > un-stability (longer period) swings, i.e., what is the longest period (or > largest swing) possible before it might go unstable? Rollamites are > probably subject to another problem which is dust collection, but the > crossed wire 'Rollamite" version would be almost immune, again why I > thought that was an interesting suspension. The downside of that > suspension would seem to be the orthoganol unstability, i.e., the hinge is > relatively rigid in the plane of the rotation, but the orthogonal axis is > another hinge with a different period potentially making the seismometer > sensitive to another axis (if using some versions of coil/magnet motion > sensors.) > Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it would > seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard that > generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are > different. I'm not a tribologist, but I'm sure this extends to the > application of the ball point rolling on a surface, type bearing, too. > > Just some idle musings. Regards, > Charles Patton > > > > John Popelish wrote: > >> ..... It will absorb a little energy as the boom swings, but a lot less >> than I will have to absorb, elsewhere, to achieve the desired damping. >> > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: back on the air From: Ian Smith ian@........... Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2005 13:11:09 +0000 I guess it could be said that I'm "back on the air" having moved house 8000 miles, lost my local friendly active volcano and had to change from a geophone to a Lehman long period device. I have a realtime plot of the Lehman - http://www.iasmith.com/realtime.htm which updates automatically every minute. I do seem to get quite a lot of micro-seisms, despite the natural period of the sensor being 16 seconds and the signal band pass filtered. I'm only about 8 miles from the edge of the North Sea which may account for it. It's located on a concrete pad in the back garden (yard). The hinge (a popular topic just now!) is a flat circular plate on the arm and 2 ball bearings on the fixed part. I use magnetic damping given the temperatures dips in winter here in Scotland. The pages will download very slowly. I'm in the middle of the countryside where there is no broadband. I had to go find 50 neighbours (tricky in the countryside!), get a grant from the local government, have satellite broadband installed and wirelessly distribute it. All very time consuming... The plus side of countryside is that there is very little environmental interference, just the kids occasionally demonstrating what happens when you jump up and down on the enclosure. Once I get my psn headers fixed up for my new location I'll be able to start submitting again. I haven't completely updated the website either, so some of the time it thinks it's still in Hawai'i. Ian Smith __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Food for thought; round glass objects on flat glass, as seismometer hinges. From: meredith lamb paleoartifact@......... Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 13:24:24 -0700 Hi all, Haven't yet tried such; but it is obvious that there are various size glass round balls around that could (?) be tried as a dual spaced pivot part of a seismo hinge. The contact surfaces for such could also be a flat glass, or of course, a variety of other materials. Probably for weight pressure limitations they may best work for S-G's (vertical hanging mass pendulums), with lighter overall boom/mass weights. "Minature glass marbles" (~2-3mm, 75-125 thousandth inch diameter estimate)= , on E-Bay, let alone a variety of the other larger glass diameter marble sizes. Glass beads with a hole through them, and jewelry balls of a variety of colors in earrings; including some false pearl, which was actually a similar colored glass bead= s I found. It may not be as farfetched as it sounds, as from examining some of my wife= s items with a jewelers loupe, the surfaces in most cases, seemed more uniform consistent without near as many very small pits/marks/grooves as similar size metal ball bearings. Of course, the diameters will likely vary more with glass than metal, and i= s likely to not be as strictly or consistently as round in shape. Earlier table top/edge tests with various glass surfaces didn't show any visual wear, for the various ~2 pound boom/mass configurations I've tried in the past. Maybe the next time I go shopping with her, I'am be alittle too enthusiasti= c to go visit the (cheap) jewelry racks; which will likely bring some initial bewildered disbelief from her...ha. Take care, Meredith Lamb Hi all,

Haven't yet tried such; but it is obvious that there are various size glass= round balls
around that could (?) be tried as a dual spaced pivot part of a seismo hing= e.  The
contact surfaces for such could also be a flat glass, or of course, a varie= ty of other
materials.  Probably for weight pressure limitations they may best wor= k for S-G's
(vertical hanging mass pendulums), with lighter overall boom/mass weights.<= br>
"Minature glass marbles" (~2-3mm, 75-125 thousandth inch diameter= estimate), on
E-Bay, let alone a variety of the other larger glass diameter marble sizes.=   Glass
beads with a hole through them, and jewelry balls of a variety of colors in= earrings;
including some false pearl, which was actually a similar colored glass bead= s I found.

It may not be as farfetched as it sounds, as from examining some of my wife= s items
with a jewelers loupe, the surfaces in most cases, seemed more uniform cons= istent
without near as many very small pits/marks/grooves as similar size metal b= all bearings.
Of course, the diameters will likely vary more with glass than metal, and i= s likely to not
be as strictly or consistently as round in shape.  Earlier table top/e= dge tests with various
glass surfaces didn't show any visual wear, for the various ~2 pound boom/m= ass
configurations I've tried in the past.

Maybe the next time I go shopping with her, I'am be alittle too enthusiasti= c to go visit
the (cheap) jewelry racks; which will likely bring some initial bewildered = disbelief
from her...ha.

Take care, Meredith Lamb


Subject: Re: Food for thought; round glass objects on flat glass, as seismometer From: Dave Youden dyouden@............. Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2005 16:34:51 -0500 Meredith, I suggest that you try sapphire or ruby balls from Small Parts Inc ( www.smallparts.com) For a couple of bucks apiece you can get grade 25 balls that are highly polished and round to within .000025". These are used commercially as indicator tips and probes for coordinate measuring machines. They have excellent physical properties as well. Dave... meredith lamb wrote: > Hi all, > > Haven't yet tried such; but it is obvious that there are various size > glass round balls > around that could (?) be tried as a dual spaced pivot part of a seismo > hinge. The > contact surfaces for such could also be a flat glass, or of course, a > variety of other > materials. Probably for weight pressure limitations they may best > work for S-G's > (vertical hanging mass pendulums), with lighter overall boom/mass weights. > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: tornados From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 18:01:17 -0600 Has anyway recorded any "strange"/"distinct" effects when tornadoes came close to their seismic detectors? __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornados From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 19:47:00 EST In a message dated 10/11/05, dickthomas01@............. writes: > Has anyway recorded any "strange"/"distinct" effects when tornadoes came > close to their seismic detectors? Hi Tom, I have seen reports of seismic signals, but how are you defining 'strange' and 'distinct'? Extreme weather conditions, passing fronts, wave systems, rotors and tornadoes can all be expected to be capable of producing direct seismic signals. However, since you use a vertical sensor without a hermetic case, it will also sense the changes in air density which these systems generate. This is a well documented source of atmospheric 'noise' in vertical instruments. Put the sensor in a hermetic chamber and you reduce the noise by up to x100. Regards, Chris In a message=20= dated 10/11/05, dickthomas01@............. writes:

Has anyway recorded any "st= range"/"distinct" effects when tornadoes came=20
close to their seismic detectors?


Hi Tom,

      I have seen reports of seismic sign= als, but how are you defining 'strange' and 'distinct'?
      Extreme weather conditions, passing= fronts, wave systems, rotors and tornadoes can all be expected to be capabl= e of producing direct seismic signals.
      However, since you use a vertical s= ensor without a hermetic case, it will also sense the changes in air density= which these systems generate. This is a well documented source of atmospher= ic 'noise' in vertical instruments. Put the sensor in a hermetic chamber and= you reduce the noise by up to x100.=20

      Regards,

      Chris

      
Subject: Re: tornados From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:16:16 -0600 There are things that bother me about what I see. You have screen displays of the data. The difference between the Lehmans and the vertical I might excuse as differences in sensitivity -- sensitivity of the electronic pickup as well as the effect of the differences in the period for the Lehmans and the vertical. Since I used your suggestions on the Leymans, I could also excuse the differences between Lehmans and the vertical to be due to greater shielding. There is increased amplitude from the background "noise" on all three detectors that corelates to the same time on each detector and very close to the chronological time that areas were hit. When this storm came "ashore" after crossing the Ohio River for the last time in what I believe was in the 6:53 UTC minute it would have started up hill. At the time I "think" it hit Ellis Park - late in the 6:57 minute - it had to cross a raised highway (about 40 ft) to reach the horse park. About mid 7:07 minute it hits the trailer court and is slightly deflected from its NE path to a ENE by the elevated by-pass (highway). The spike early in the 7:11 minute might be the breaking of the highland in the immediate path of the tornado that runs N-S about 1/4 mile east of the trailer park. You know I have trouble with power line spikes. There are none on the records of any of the detectors for this time frame -- well over an hour. As I mentioned earlier, record was "quiet" for the hour previous to the tornado. There is one other thing missing from the displays. That is lightning strikes. I frequently record close lightning strikes with these detectors. I know what they look like. There were at least four very close strikes in my immediate area and eye-witnesses discribe the clouds being filled with lightning just ahead of the tornado. Why don't I see some? Most of the "busy" activity on the seismograms seems to be late in the life of the tornado as it pulls east of me.Dr. Herrmann at St. Louis was wondering about frequencies above 5 hz -- things his seimographs would filter out. Maybe the vertical is susceptible to this frequency range. I was also considering the possibiliity (difference between early and late in the travel of this tornado) that might be caused by some form of phase shift like what a train whistle does as it passes. It was traveling unusually fast for a tornado. This is why I used the words "strange" / "distinct" recordings, maybe the word unique might be more correct. So, do I make sense?? __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornados From: Tamati chief.cook.nz@............ 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cDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDtSZWdhcmRzLCANCjxCUj48QlI+Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7 Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Q2hyaXMgDQo8QlI+PEJSPiZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNw OyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOzwvRk9OVD4gPC9GT05UPjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= Subject: Re: tornados From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 21:49:07 -0600 The event is the tornado that passed within 4 miles of my house in = Evansville, Indiana on Nov. 6 in which at least 22 fatalities are = documental. The tornado was an upper F3.
The event is the tornado that passed within 4 miles = of my=20 house in Evansville, Indiana on Nov. 6 in which at least 22 fatalities = are=20 documental. The tornado was an upper F3.

      
=20
Subject: RE: tornados From: "Timothy Carpenter" GeoDynamics@....... Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2005 23:30:49 -0500 Thomas, This might be a good starting point to get some more info: http://www.admin.mtu.edu/urel/PressReleases/97releases/tornado.html Regards, -Tim- -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Thomas Dick Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:49 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: tornados The event is the tornado that passed within 4 miles of my house in Evansville, Indiana on Nov. 6 in which at least 22 fatalities are documental. The tornado was an upper F3. Subject: '06 Conference From: "Connie and Jim Lehman" lehmancj@........... Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 09:45:41 -0500 Seismic Friends-- Recently the Seismology Society of America listed details of their = San Francisco 100th Anniversary Earthquake Conference planned for April = 18-22 '06 in San Francisco. www.seismosoc.org=20 There is plenty of everything for anybody active in seismic science, = professional or amateur. 25 Field Trips, and 40 technical sessions. Unfortunately the registration is steep, but hey, only once in 100 = years these special moments come along. = Jim Lehman
         =20 Seismic Friends--
    There is plenty of everything = for=20 anybody active in seismic science, professional or amateur.  25 = Field=20 Trips, and 40 technical sessions.
 
     Unfortunately the = registration is=20 steep, but hey, only once in 100 years these special moments come=20 along.
          =             &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;           &nbs= p;            = ;    =20 Jim Lehman
Subject: Re: '06 Conference From: piet.beenders@......... Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 16:03:31 +0100 That is to costly for amateurs like me, on the other hand, i could suggest to be a student ... Piet Beenders __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: '06 Conference From: "Kareem at HeyJooJoo" system98765@............. Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:10:18 -0800 Where can one find the costs? It's not listed on the website. -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of piet.beenders@......... Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 7:04 AM To: psn-l@............... psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: '06 Conference That is to costly for amateurs like me, on the other hand, i could suggest to be a student ... Piet Beenders __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: '06 Conference From: "Kareem at HeyJooJoo" system98765@............. Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:11:33 -0800 Found it. -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of piet.beenders@......... Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2005 7:04 AM To: psn-l@............... psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: '06 Conference That is to costly for amateurs like me, on the other hand, i could suggest to be a student ... Piet Beenders __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: '06 Conference Costs From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2005 12:14:00 EST In a message dated 10/11/05, system98765@............. writes: > Where can one find the costs? It's not listed on the website. Go the the Website, click on Meetings and then Registration 18-22 April 2006 San Francisco http://www.1906eqconf.org/fullconfReg.htm Full members $480, non members $550, retirees & students $240, authors get $240 credit off their $480. Daily, Student, Teacher rates available Living as I do on the other side of the world, would make just getting there quite costly for me. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 10/11/05, system98765@............. writes:

Where can one find the cost= s? It's not listed on the website.


      Go the the Website, click on Meetin= gs and then Registration
      18-22 April 2006 San Francisco
      http://www.1906eqconf.org/fullconfR= eg.htm
      Full members $480, non members $550= , retirees & students $240, authors get $240 credit off their $480.
      Daily, Student, Teacher rates avail= able
      Living as I do on the other side of= the world, would make just getting there quite costly for me.
      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: '06 Conference From: Tamati chief.cook.nz@............ 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SVY+PC9CT0RZPjwvSFRNTD4NCg== Subject: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B From: "JAMES C. ALLEN" jcallen1@........... Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 11:26:59 -0800 I just bid on and won three Teledyne Geotech Helicorder's model RV-301B, for which I am going to keep one and am willing to give the other two away. These units will require repair. However, if you want one go to the EBay listing for item # 6223171283 which closed yesterday select either one or both of the two on the right side of your screen and let me know. I will inform the company to release it (them) to you. You just have to pay shipping which will run (in the USA) about $35.00 per unit. James Allen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne" To: Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:57 AM Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > >> Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it would >> seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard that >> generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are >> different. > > > Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to choosing materials with > low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for ease of > subsequent maintenance. That is, if the same bearing material were used > for both surfaces, both bearing parts would wear away at pretty much the > same rate. With differing materials having different wear rates, only one > half of of the bearing would need to be replaced. This could be useful in > those circumstances where "half" of the bearing is more readily accesible, > but the other "half" is not. Don't know if this wear/replacement business > has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, however. > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B From: "Jack Ivey" ivey@.......... Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:31:05 -0500 I'll take one (if there's any left...). Thanks, Jack Ivey -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of JAMES C. ALLEN Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:27 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B I just bid on and won three Teledyne Geotech Helicorder's model RV-301B, for=20 which I am going to keep one and am willing to give the other two away.=20 These units will require repair. However, if you want one go to the EBay=20 listing for item # 6223171283 which closed yesterday select either one or=20 both of the two on the right side of your screen and let me know. I will=20 inform the company to release it (them) to you. You just have to pay=20 shipping which will run (in the USA) about $35.00 per unit. James Allen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Wayne" To: Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:57 AM Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > >> Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it would=20 >> seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard that=20 >> generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are=20 >> different. > > > Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to choosing materials with=20 > low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for ease of=20 > subsequent maintenance. That is, if the same bearing material were used=20 > for both surfaces, both bearing parts would wear away at pretty much the=20 > same rate. With differing materials having different wear rates, only one=20 > half of of the bearing would need to be replaced. This could be useful in=20 > those circumstances where "half" of the bearing is more readily accesible,=20 > but the other "half" is not. Don't know if this wear/replacement business=20 > has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, however. > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the=20 > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >=20 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B From: "Jack Ivey" ivey@.......... Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 14:32:42 -0500 Oops, never mind, thought it was a different model, I can't use it. Thanks anyway. Jack -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of JAMES C. ALLEN Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:27 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B I just bid on and won three Teledyne Geotech Helicorder's model RV-301B, for=20 which I am going to keep one and am willing to give the other two away.=20 These units will require repair. However, if you want one go to the EBay=20 listing for item # 6223171283 which closed yesterday select either one or=20 both of the two on the right side of your screen and let me know. I will=20 inform the company to release it (them) to you. You just have to pay=20 shipping which will run (in the USA) about $35.00 per unit. James Allen ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Wayne" To: Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:57 AM Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > >> Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it would=20 >> seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard that=20 >> generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are=20 >> different. > > > Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to choosing materials with=20 > low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for ease of=20 > subsequent maintenance. That is, if the same bearing material were used=20 > for both surfaces, both bearing parts would wear away at pretty much the=20 > same rate. With differing materials having different wear rates, only one=20 > half of of the bearing would need to be replaced. This could be useful in=20 > those circumstances where "half" of the bearing is more readily accesible,=20 > but the other "half" is not. Don't know if this wear/replacement business=20 > has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, however. > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the=20 > message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >=20 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B From: "Kareem at HeyJooJoo" system98765@............. Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 17:18:56 -0800 Jack, I would like one. Kareem -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Jack Ivey Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 11:33 AM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B Oops, never mind, thought it was a different model, I can't use it. Thanks anyway. Jack -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of JAMES C. ALLEN Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:27 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B I just bid on and won three Teledyne Geotech Helicorder's model RV-301B, for which I am going to keep one and am willing to give the other two away. These units will require repair. However, if you want one go to the EBay listing for item # 6223171283 which closed yesterday select either one or both of the two on the right side of your screen and let me know. I will inform the company to release it (them) to you. You just have to pay shipping which will run (in the USA) about $35.00 per unit. James Allen ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne" To: Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:57 AM Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > >> Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it would >> seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard that >> generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are >> different. > > > Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to choosing materials with > low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for ease of > subsequent maintenance. That is, if the same bearing material were used > for both surfaces, both bearing parts would wear away at pretty much the > same rate. With differing materials having different wear rates, only one > half of of the bearing would need to be replaced. This could be useful in > those circumstances where "half" of the bearing is more readily accesible, > but the other "half" is not. Don't know if this wear/replacement business > has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, however. > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe See > http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B From: FRANK COOPER fxc@........... Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 19:15:36 -0800 (PST) Hi James, I would like one if there is one left. Thanks, Frank --- "JAMES C. ALLEN" wrote: > I just bid on and won three Teledyne Geotech > Helicorder's model RV-301B, for > which I am going to keep one and am willing to give > the other two away. > These units will require repair. However, if you > want one go to the EBay > listing for item # 6223171283 which closed yesterday > select either one or > both of the two on the right side of your screen and > let me know. I will > inform the company to release it (them) to you. You > just have to pay > shipping which will run (in the USA) about $35.00 > per unit. > James Allen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wayne" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:57 AM > Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > > > > > Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > > > > >> Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about > points on surfaces, it would > >> seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. > I belive I've heard that > >> generally sliding surface bearings are better if > the materials are > >> different. > > > > > > Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to > choosing materials with > > low sliding friction, a second bearing material > was often used for ease of > > subsequent maintenance. That is, if the same > bearing material were used > > for both surfaces, both bearing parts would wear > away at pretty much the > > same rate. With differing materials having > different wear rates, only one > > half of of the bearing would need to be replaced. > This could be useful in > > those circumstances where "half" of the bearing is > more readily accesible, > > but the other "half" is not. Don't know if this > wear/replacement business > > has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, > however. > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > > > To leave this list email > PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > > message (first line only): unsubscribe > > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for > more information. > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email > PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): > unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more > information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B From: "JAMES C. ALLEN" jcallen1@........... Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2005 20:18:44 -0800 Sorry Kareem, I just arranged for the last one to be shipped to Frank Cooper. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kareem at HeyJooJoo" To: Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 5:18 PM Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B > Jack, I would like one. > > Kareem > > -----Original Message----- > From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... > On > Behalf Of Jack Ivey > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 11:33 AM > To: psn-l@.............. > Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B > > Oops, never mind, thought it was a different model, I can't use it. > > Thanks anyway. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... > On Behalf Of JAMES C. ALLEN > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:27 PM > To: psn-l@.............. > Subject: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B > > I just bid on and won three Teledyne Geotech Helicorder's model RV-301B, > for > which I am going to keep one and am willing to give the other two away. > These units will require repair. However, if you want one go to the EBay > listing for item # 6223171283 which closed yesterday select either one or > both of the two on the right side of your screen and let me know. I will > inform the company to release it (them) to you. You just have to pay > shipping which will run (in the USA) about $35.00 per unit. > James Allen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wayne" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:57 AM > Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > >> >> Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson >> >> >>> Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it > would >>> seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard > that >>> generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are >>> different. >> >> >> Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to choosing materials > with >> low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for > ease of >> subsequent maintenance. That is, if the same bearing material were > used >> for both surfaces, both bearing parts would wear away at pretty much > the >> same rate. With differing materials having different wear rates, only > one >> half of of the bearing would need to be replaced. This could be > useful in >> those circumstances where "half" of the bearing is more readily > accesible, >> but the other "half" is not. Don't know if this wear/replacement > business >> has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, however. >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the >> message (first line only): unsubscribe See >> http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe See > http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of the > message (first line only): unsubscribe See > http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B From: "Kareem at HeyJooJoo" system98765@............. Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 00:04:22 -0800 bummer! Hopefully, you'll get your hands on more of these items in the future. -----Original Message----- From: JAMES C. ALLEN [mailto:jcallen1@............ Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 8:19 PM To: system98765@............. Cc: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B Sorry Kareem, I just arranged for the last one to be shipped to Frank Cooper. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kareem at HeyJooJoo" To: Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 5:18 PM Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B > Jack, I would like one. > > Kareem > > -----Original Message----- > From: psn-l-request@.............. > [mailto:psn-l-request@............... > On > Behalf Of Jack Ivey > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 11:33 AM > To: psn-l@.............. > Subject: RE: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B > > Oops, never mind, thought it was a different model, I can't use it. > > Thanks anyway. > > Jack > > -----Original Message----- > From: psn-l-request@.............. > [mailto:psn-l-request@............... > On Behalf Of JAMES C. ALLEN > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 2:27 PM > To: psn-l@.............. > Subject: TELEDYNE GEOTECH HELICORDER'S RV-301B > > I just bid on and won three Teledyne Geotech Helicorder's model > RV-301B, for which I am going to keep one and am willing to give the > other two away. > These units will require repair. However, if you want one go to the > EBay listing for item # 6223171283 which closed yesterday select > either one or both of the two on the right side of your screen and let > me know. I will inform the company to release it (them) to you. You > just have to pay shipping which will run (in the USA) about $35.00 per unit. > James Allen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Wayne" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 8:57 AM > Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson > > >> >> Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson >> >> >>> Oh yes, one other point (pun intended) about points on surfaces, it > would >>> seem to me that mixing material is a good idea. I belive I've heard > that >>> generally sliding surface bearings are better if the materials are >>> different. >> >> >> Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to choosing materials > with >> low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for > ease of >> subsequent maintenance. That is, if the same bearing material were > used >> for both surfaces, both bearing parts would wear away at pretty much > the >> same rate. With differing materials having different wear rates, >> only > one >> half of of the bearing would need to be replaced. This could be > useful in >> those circumstances where "half" of the bearing is more readily > accesible, >> but the other "half" is not. Don't know if this wear/replacement > business >> has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, however. >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body >> of > the >> message (first line only): unsubscribe See >> http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the message (first line only): unsubscribe See > http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the message (first line only): unsubscribe See > http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of > the message (first line only): unsubscribe See > http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Amateur Scientist CD From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:26:54 -0500 Hi All, Does anyone on the list have the Scientific American Amateur Scientist CD. I am looking for an article that described how to make a microbarograph with a 2 liter pop bottle. It was years ago. I think that a note the I have refers to May of 1998, I think the article was called "Atmospheric Tsunamis" or something like that. I stopped my subscription to Scientific American when they stopped the Amateur Scientist column. I had clipped the article but in a fit of getting rid of junk I think I deep six'd that one. Thanks, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Amateur Scientist CD From: "Bob Hancock" carpediem1@......... Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 07:33:34 -0700 Angel - I have the CD set - I will have to look up the article for you. Cheers Bob Hancock -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of Angel Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 07:27 To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Amateur Scientist CD Hi All, Does anyone on the list have the Scientific American Amateur Scientist CD. I am looking for an article that described how to make a microbarograph with a 2 liter pop bottle. It was years ago. I think that a note the I have refers to May of 1998, I think the article was called "Atmospheric Tsunamis" or something like that. I stopped my subscription to Scientific American when they stopped the Amateur Scientist column. I had clipped the article but in a fit of getting rid of junk I think I deep six'd that one. Thanks, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Amateur Scientist CD From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 20:52:25 EST Hi Angel, I have the CD, but you ought to take a look as well at _http://www.belljar.net/microbar.htm_ (http://www.belljar.net/microbar.htm) Cheers, Bob McClure
Hi Angel,
 
  I have the CD, but you ought to take a look as well at
 
http://www.belljar.net/microbar= ..htm
 
Cheers,
 
Bob McClure
Subject: Re: low friction hinge discusson From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2005 12:48:06 EST In a message dated 07/11/05, wandc@....... writes: > Hi Wayne, > > Regarding this, I had heard that in addition to choosing materials with > > low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for ease of > > subsequent maintenance. Don't know if this wear/replacement business > > Sliding friction in a bearing and rolling friction are two very different situations. Sliding, or rolling on a compliant / rubbery type surface both inevitably involve energy loss. We try hard to avoid this. For a seismometer suspension, you need an extremely low energy loss hinge action. Even foils flexing in a cross hinge involve some loss. The rolling wire / foil type does appear capable of giving lower losses. For a rolling contact type (ball on a flat or crossed cylinder) we need two surfaces which are hard, strong, don't tend to weld or corrode and remain near perfectly elastic at the contact point, which is quite highly stressed. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 07/11/05, wandc@....... writes:

Subject: Re: low friction h= inge discusson


Hi Wayne,

> Regarding this, I had=20= heard that in addition to choosing materials with=20
> low sliding friction, a second bearing material was often used for=20= ease of=20
> subsequent maintenance. Don't know if this wear/replacement busines= s=20
> has any bearing (pun intended) on seismo hinges, however.

      Sliding friction in a bearing and r= olling friction are two very different situations.
Sliding, or rolling on a compliant / rubbery type surface both inevitabl= y involve energy loss. We try hard to avoid this.=20

      For a seismometer suspension, you n= eed an extremely low energy loss hinge action. Even foils flexing in a cross= hinge involve some loss. The rolling wire / foil type does appear capable o= f giving lower losses. For a rolling contact type (ball on a flat or crossed= cylinder) we need two surfaces which are hard, strong, don't tend to weld o= r corrode and remain near perfectly elastic at the contact point, which is q= uite highly stressed.=20

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
Subject: ebay auction From: BOB BARNS royb1@........... Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 10:58:52 -0500 Hi gang, WWII Era USGS/ARMY? Seismometer Seismograph XLNT Works! Item number: 6226195159 ends Nov 22 Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Amateur Scientist CD From: BOB BARNS royb1@........... Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:07:52 -0500 Angel, I have the article but am reluctant to post it here. That might cause copyright problems for Larry's site. If you will send me your email addr., I will send the article. Bob Barns Angel wrote: > Hi All, > > Does anyone on the list have the Scientific American Amateur Scientist > CD. I am looking for an article that described how to make a > microbarograph with a 2 liter pop bottle. It was years ago. I think > that a note the I have refers to May of 1998, I think the article was > called "Atmospheric Tsunamis" or something like that. I stopped my > subscription to Scientific American when they stopped the Amateur > Scientist column. I had clipped the article but in a fit of getting > rid of junk I think I deep six'd that one. > > Thanks, > > Angel > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > __________ NOD32 1.1284 (20051111) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Amateur Scientist CD From: "James Hannon" jmhannon@......... Date: Mon, 14 Nov 105 10:15:03 CST You might also want to look at http://geology.heroy.smu.edu/~hayward/ and http://www.belljar.net/microbar.htm If you haven't already. Jim Hannon ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: BOB BARNS Reply-To: psn-l@.............. Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:07:52 -0500 >Angel, > I have the article but am reluctant to post it here. That might >cause copyright problems for Larry's site. > If you will send me your email addr., I will send the article. >Bob Barns > > > >Angel wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Does anyone on the list have the Scientific American Amateur Scientist >> CD. I am looking for an article that described how to make a >> microbarograph with a 2 liter pop bottle. It was years ago. I think >> that a note the I have refers to May of 1998, I think the article was >> called "Atmospheric Tsunamis" or something like that. I stopped my >> subscription to Scientific American when they stopped the Amateur >> Scientist column. I had clipped the article but in a fit of getting >> rid of junk I think I deep six'd that one. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Angel >> -- Jim Hannon http://www.fmtcs.com/web/jmhannon/ 42,11.90N,91,39.26W WB0TXL -- __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re[2]: Amateur Scientist CD From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:21:57 -0500 Hello BOB, I understand that reluctacne and another Bob sent it to me off line. Thanks. I will write yo a note a line in a while. Thanks angel Monday, November 14, 2005, 11:07:52 AM, you wrote: > Angel, > I have the article but am reluctant to post it here. That might > cause copyright problems for Larry's site. > If you will send me your email addr., I will send the article. > Bob Barns > Angel wrote: >> Hi All, >> >> Does anyone on the list have the Scientific American Amateur Scientist >> CD. I am looking for an article that described how to make a >> microbarograph with a 2 liter pop bottle. It was years ago. I think >> that a note the I have refers to May of 1998, I think the article was >> called "Atmospheric Tsunamis" or something like that. I stopped my >> subscription to Scientific American when they stopped the Amateur >> Scientist column. I had clipped the article but in a fit of getting >> rid of junk I think I deep six'd that one. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Angel >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> >> Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) >> >> To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >> the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >> See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >> >> __________ NOD32 1.1284 (20051111) Information __________ >> >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> > __________________________________________________________ > Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with > the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe > See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. -- Best regards, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re[2]: Amateur Scientist CD From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 11:28:49 -0500 Hello James, Thanks and you guessed right I have been to both! regards, Angel Monday, November 14, 2005, 11:15:03 AM, you wrote: > You might also want to look at > http://geology.heroy.smu.edu/~hayward/ > and > http://www.belljar.net/microbar.htm > If you haven't already. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Amateur Scientist CD From: "David Saum" DSaum@............ Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2005 12:11:19 -0500 Hi Angel I have the Amateur Scientist CD. Do you still need the article? I am collecting parts for a microbarograph similar to http://www.belljar.net/microbar.htm I am planning to take my QM-4.5 geophone electronics and replace the geophone/opamp with a low pressure differential sensor and an instrumentation amp. Everything else would remain the same and Amaseis could be used for data logging. Here is another interesting microbarograph reference with pictures of a wind noise reduction system http://www.knmi.nl/~evers/infrasound/web-article/how.html BTW: I recently got some ADXL103 1-axis accelerometer samples and I have found that I can mount them along with a tuning capacitor on an 8 pin DIP-surface mount adapter board and then plug this into the 8 pin DIP opamp socket on my QM-4.5 board, and that is all that is required to produce a single axis +/-1.5g strong motion seismometer. My 16 bit ADC resolution is 0.076mg and the noise level at my 0-4.5 Hz bandwidth is 3.5adc units or about 0.3mg. Can I send one to you to try out on your QM-4.5 board? I would like to see if you can detect a quake with it. I may have to wait some time for a +1mg seismic event here in VA. Ciao, Dave http://www.infiltec.com/seismo > Subject: Amateur Scientist CD > From: Angel > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 09:26:54 -0500 > > Hi All, > > Does anyone on the list have the Scientific American Amateur Scientist > CD. I am looking for an article that described how to make a > microbarograph with a 2 liter pop bottle. It was years ago. I think > that a note the I have refers to May of 1998, I think the article was > called "Atmospheric Tsunamis" or something like that. I stopped my > subscription to Scientific American when they stopped the Amateur > Scientist column. I had clipped the article but in a fit of getting > rid of junk I think I deep six'd that one. > > Thanks, > > Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: ebay auction From: Tamati chief.cook.nz@............ 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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 23:09:29 -0800 Hi Everyone, If anyone can help out please send email directly to Carol and CC the list. Thanks, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Contact Form - U.S. Department of Agriculture, Weather Bureau (Seismology) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:07:19 -0800 From: CASkold@....... User Name: Carol Skold User Address: CASkold@....... Subject: U.S. Department of Agriculture, Weather Bureau (Seismology) ----------------------------------------------------------- I am a volunteer at Luther Burbank Home & Gardens in Santa Rosa, CA We are putting a new exhibit in our museum for next year concerning the 1906 Quake mainly as it affected Santa Rosa. In our archives of Mr. Burbank we have a form with the above title which appears to be something that was given to citizens asking them to be observers of quakes, to record the data on the form, and it also has a list of earthquake intensities (Adapted Rossi-Forel). Do you have any information about these old records. They show 19.. in the date space so are after 1900. Mr. Burbank died in 1926. He published his account of the 1906 quake and was very interested in the event. We would like to know more about them, are they stored somewhere, could we get copies of his observations, who else would/might have info on them? Any information you could give would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: ebay auction From: BOB BARNS royb1@........... Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 10:30:35 -0500 Hi gang, NOMIS NCSC 5000 VME SEISMOGRAPH Item number: 6227244945 ends Nov 22 Note rather high shipping and a rather low feedback score. Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: [Fwd: Contact Form - U.S. Department of Agriculture, Weather Bureau (Seismology)] From: "Steve Hammond" shammon1@............. Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:20:45 -0800 Hello Carol, See if you can locate a copy of California Earthquake of April 18, 1906 published by Carnege Institution of Washington 1908 reprinted in 1969. This is the reprint of the report of the California State earthquake Investigation commission with Chariman Andrew C. Lawson providing an account of the earthquake. It includes 13 pictures of the damage in the Santa Rosa area with remarks. For example, (Page-199) Santa Rosa-- Prof. R.S. Holway made a study of the effects of the earthquake at Santa Rosa and the surrounding territory. According to the text, Sanata Rosa had the most extensive damage of any city in the earthquake and was only second to Sebastopol (where the Burbank farm was located). In the event you cannot locate the report, I have included the text below. ---------------------------------------------------------------- To your question: >Burbank we have a form with the above title which appears to >be something that was given to citizens asking them to be observers >of quakes, to record the data on the form, and it also has a list >of earthquake intensities (Adapted Rossi-Forel) The California Earthquake Report contains a record of after-shocks. What you have may be one of the data collection sheets used to obtain consistent data (I'm guessing her)that may have been sent out in one of the three circulars mentioned below. The tables in the report contain the following headings, do they match to what you are looking at? Record of after-shock includes: Day, Beginning of shock, Duration, Intensity, Locality, Remarks Here is the text that goes with the tables. (Page 410) "The list of after-shocks given below has been compiled by A. 0. Lcuschner from all reports that have come to hand. These reports include not only communications in answer to the three circulars sent out, but also other reports by interested observers. In addition many shocks in the list were taken from the separate reports printed in this volume. For the sake of completeness the shocks reported by Prof. Alex. McAdie in his monthly reports of the California Section of the Climatological Service of the AVeather Bureau have also been included. A number of shocks have been inserted in the first proof from Prof. Alex. MeAdie's Catalogue of Earthquakes on the Pacific Coast 1897-1906.1 It should be stated, however, that this list by no means represents a complete enumeration of all after-shocks felt in California since April 18. In general, it may be said that the list becomes increasingly incomplete with the lapse of time since the great earthquake. This is particularly due to the efforts made by some of the newspapers to suppress all news regarding earthquakes in California. The list may be considered complete only for Berkeley, California, where several observers have endeavored to record every shock. As a rule the observer's name is included in the last column, initials being used for observers who have reported more than one shock. A key to the initials is given at the end of the list. The times are expressed in Pacific Standard Time." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Report Data about Santa Rosa and the Burbank Farm. The following is taken directly from the text (Page-205) "Mr. G. K. Gilbert also visited the Burbank farm at Sebastopol, and contributes the following note referring in part to the cracks discust by President Jordan: Mr. Luther Burbank gave me an account of personal experiences and of various phenomena at Santa Rosa, and I record such items as are supplementary to Professor Holway's report. Mr. Burbank was awake at the time. He immediately got out of bed, but found he could not stand, and settled back against the bed, holding on to the window casing and bedpost. The initial impulse was from the west, and during the first portion of the earthquake the motion was oscillatory, east and west. Then it became oscillatory north and south, and at the close there was a complex motion which he compared with that of a vessel in a choppy sea. From the window he saw trees waving, and after the tremor had ceased he seemed to see a continued disturbance in the foot-hills at the east, as tho the tremor was retreating in that direction. He said that practically every one in Santa Rosa who was on foot at the time was thrown to the ground, but that men on bicycles were not upset. During more than 30 years' residence in Santa Rosa he had felt about 130 earthquakes. None were comparable in violence with the recent one, tho several had broken chimneys. A number of earthquakes which were felt generally in Santa Rosa had not been felt at all in Sebastopol, and he thought that Santa Rosa was peculiarly subject to shocks. A shock was felt in Santa Rosa on April 17, 1906. Mr. Lawrence, foreman on Mr. Burbank's farm at Sebastopol, stated that men standing or walking at the time of the shock were thrown from their feet, as were cows and horses. The small house on the Burbank place was moved from its foundations a fewr inches downhill, and Mr. Lawrence mentioned a number of houses which had moved various distances, the direction in every case being downhill. On the Burbank farm a small landslide occurred, a layer of moist soil only a few feet in thickness moving down the slope, introducing bends in various lines of cultivated plants. I saw another feature of this sort on an adjacent farm, and was told of others which I did not visit. In a general note on the intensity of the earthquake, appended to detailed observations which have been incorporated in the foregoing account of the distribution of intensity, Mr. G. K. Gilbert says: In general the violence seems to have been less in Petaluma than in Sebastopol, Santa Rosa, or Maacama, notwithstanding the fact that it is nearer the main fault. As compared with Sebastopol and Santa Rosa, however, Petaluma seems to be on relatively firm ground, excepting a small district bordering the marshes. In a general way, I think the relative violence in the three towns corresponds to the character of their foundations, but considering the district as a whole, in relation to districts nearer the main fault, it is clear that the intensity was exceptionally high." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope this helps-- Regards, Steve Hammond -- PSN San Jose, Aptos CA http://pw2.netcom.com/~shammon1/psnsj.htm -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@................. Behalf Of Larry Cochrane Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 11:09 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: [Fwd: Contact Form - U.S. Department of Agriculture, Weather Bureau (Seismology)] Hi Everyone, If anyone can help out please send email directly to Carol and CC the list. Thanks, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Contact Form - U.S. Department of Agriculture, Weather Bureau (Seismology) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2005 16:07:19 -0800 From: CASkold@....... User Name: Carol Skold User Address: CASkold@....... Subject: U.S. Department of Agriculture, Weather Bureau (Seismology) ----------------------------------------------------------- I am a volunteer at Luther Burbank Home & Gardens in Santa Rosa, CA We are putting a new exhibit in our museum for next year concerning the 1906 Quake mainly as it affected Santa Rosa. In our archives of Mr. . Do you have any information about these old records. They show 19.. in the date space so are after 1900. Mr. Burbank died in 1926. He published his account of the 1906 quake and was very interested in the event. We would like to know more about them, are they stored somewhere, could we get copies of his observations, who else would/might have info on them? Any information you could give would be greatly appreciated. Thank you. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Power supply sought From: "Kareem at HeyJooJoo" system98765@............. Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2005 00:46:49 -0800 Anyone know where I can obtain a power supply that's comparable to the POWER SUPPLY MODEL 48.11C? This particular model is used for the Geotech Teledybne Helicorder RV 105 model. I suppose I could contact Geotech but would rather not spend the money. Kareem __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: ebay auction From: BOB BARNS royb1@........... Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:52:07 -0500 Hi gang, Kinemetrics Ranger SS-1 Seismometer Item number: 7565024152 ends 11/27 Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Seismic Detector From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:49:51 -0700 Hello, I got this circuit set up only to alarm when a signal comes in and not to record anything and it works quite well. If you just want to know if the earth is really moving and it is not just your imagination then this circuit might be for you. I used OP177G op amps from the Philippines all through but most probably you can use other types capable of driving the loads. Post: [IMG]http://files.photojerk.com/gmvoeth/seisdet1.jpg[/IMG] The caps were measured using a DMM before designing the circuits. regards gmvoeth __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: e-Quake Seismic Explorer From: Larry Cochrane lcochrane@.............. Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:34:23 -0800 Hi Everyone, Ken Smith, who works for the University of Nevada Reno in the Nevada Seismological Lab and owner of e-Quake, has a program called Seismic Explorer. His software works with my PSN-ADC-SERIAL 16-Bit Analog to Digital board. See his web page at http://www.equakenet.com/ for more information. Ken is looking for some beta testers who have Internet connections using DHCP rather then a static IP address so he can test out his data server. He would like people who have a short-period sensor like a geophone and live in an area that has local events. If you can help out, or for more information, please contact Ken at ken@.............. Thanks, Larry Cochrane Redwood City, PSN __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: e-Quake Seismic Explorer From: Tamati chief.cook.nz@............ 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Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 14:14:09 -0600 Below is a section of my website where I have posted stuff on the Nov, 6 F3 tornado that passed by me. I am sure many of you don't have tornadoes passing by your equipment very often. If you will click on November 6 F3 ...... at this site http://home.insightbb.com/~dickthomas01/, you will see some of the damage and data. Your comments and expertise would be appreciated. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 13:47:39 -0700 When i try to access the information on http://home.insightbb.com/~dickthomas01/index_files/Page329.htm I get file not found error You should do a FFT analysis of your raw digital data and see if you can extract the rotational rate of the funnel cloud from the data. I would expect the rotational rate of a .75 mile wide funnel with 100 mph wind speed to have a rotational period near 84 seconds or less. If the tornado was traveling at 60mph then the rotational speed was probably only about 100mph. It made me sad that was unable to see the seismic data, but what the hey, thats the story of my life. :-) gmvoeth __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 15:38:58 -0600 > > I get file not found error --- it may be that you didn't let it load -- it maybe a little large > > I will have to pull the data off backup and look at this. How would this register on the seismometer? > If the tornado was traveling at 60mph > then the rotational speed was probably > only about 100mph. > The weather "specialists" with government weather station in our area estimated the wind speeds of around 300 mph > It made me sad that was unable to see the > seismic data, but what the hey, thats the story of my life. > Try again -- I included a seismogram from today's 6.2 at the bottom of the page. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: "Timothy Carpenter" GeoDynamics@....... Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 17:26:34 -0500 Fascinating collection of information -- you've got the eye of a = forensics engineer. I'm going to do a bit of shooting from the hip here, so don't = put too much reliance on my guesses. I agree that a particularly likely strong source is the radio tower = behind you. The guy wires are visible in the photo -- and they don't appear to = have any dampers on them (at least not within the view of the camera. One particular event in your record (that you identified as the initial high winds) at 7:28 suggests the tower (its components) had gone into a = resonant mode lasting about 2-minutes with a relatively constant amplitude. You = can eventually sort-out how much of a signal you get from the tower by = keeping (or getting) a log of wind speed and direction. Then compare that data = to associated recordings from the seismometer. There are undoubtedly a = plethora of common frequencies associated with the tower and its guy wires. I do a fair amount of work in structural and ground-transmitted = vibrations. In virtually all of my long-term setups, I always have provisions to = shut the acquisition system down as thunderstorms approach the region. One of = the things I'd like to have is a database of characteristic ground responses = to thunder. Perhaps you have some of that information wrapped-up in your records. You might check with the local weather service office to see if = you can get access to their lightning-strike database. I've got a sneaky suspicion that some of the higher spikes may be the initial shock from a lightning strike. One of the things I sometimes find useful when analyzing long strings of vibration data is to convert the record into an audio file. In this = case, we'd have to fool the file translator into thinking the sampling rate = was about 1kH or higher rather than your actual slow rate. Obviously, a lot more information can be visually extracted if we = weren't faced with the inherent clutter of the drum-recorder format. The exceptionally low-frequency responses at 6:52 and 7:37 appear to be almost identical in magnitude and phase -- is that some artifact of your system, I just cannot rationalize that they represent natural events. I'd be very interested in looking at your digital files to see what = usable info can be extracted. Contact me off-line if you like. Finally, what is the natural frequency of your system? Regards, -Tim- Timothy Carpenter, P.E., Pres., GeoDynamics Consultants, Inc. 5043 Whitlow Ct. Commerce Twp., Mi 48382 248-363-4529 (voice & fax) 248-766-1629 (cell) geodynamics@........... (primary) geodynamics@....... (secondary) =A0 -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... = On Behalf Of Thomas Dick Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 3:14 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: tornadoes and earthquake detection Below is a section of my website where I have posted stuff on the Nov, 6 = F3=20 tornado that passed by me. I am sure many of you don't have tornadoes=20 passing by your equipment very often. If you will click on November 6 F3 = ...... at this site http://home.insightbb.com/~dickthomas01/, you will = see=20 some of the damage and data. Your comments and expertise would be=20 appreciated.=20 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 15:30:45 -0700 > I will have to pull the data off backup and look at this. How would this > register on the seismometer? I would expect any periodic thing to register similar to a sine wave and be detectable by an FFT program and if you are able to integrate your data over time you might be able to see intelligence that is below the noise level. The bandwidth of such a signal would probably be quite wide. The rotation of a tornado is a periodic event. >> If the tornado was traveling at 60mph >> then the rotational speed was probably >> only about 100mph. >> > The weather "specialists" with government weather station in our area > estimated the wind speeds of around 300 mph If the windspeed is 300mph and the forward speed is 60 then the actual rotation would be about 240 at the measuring radius from the center and if the diameter is 0.75 miles then the rotational period should be about 12441f circum/352fps or 35 seconds per rotation. I expect the actual scenario in three dimensions to be considerably more complex then this but this represents the best idea I can visualize in my crazy brain. I find it amazing that if a tornado f5 passes over a given point the wind speeds measured across the center is in the transonic range I can not imagine any structure withstanding transonic wind velocities across itself. Funny things happen in the transonic ranges because gas compressional effects have their way. If you look at the edges of a tornado you will see a heat like shimmer seemingly related to index of refraction changes and I suspect this is the rotational area you would be interested in knowing the windspeed of. Air density is probably most intense at some radius with a slight vacuum in the center due to centrifugal/centripetal forces. You want to look at the radius where this air density is compressed against the inrushing air inorder to guess what rotational rate to see on a seismogram. I have pondered these ideas over a considerable length of time but have no use for any of them. Maybe one of you seismic gurus can invent a tornado detector using a seismometer and a fft program somehow. The only thing I can imagine is building a home uaing aircraft construction techniques half underground in the shape of a flying saucer to stand up to these tremendous wind forces. :-) gmvoeth __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: "Geoff" gmvoeth@........... Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 15:45:22 -0700 " One of the things I sometimes find useful when analyzing long strings of vibration data is to convert the record into an audio file. In this case, we'd have to fool the file translator into thinking the sampling rate was about 1kH or higher rather than your actual slow rate. " Use a wave file and invent a header with a standard sample rate used by most audio programs then you can convert to any other file format desired. I think 44100 samples per second is typical maximum. I like using 8 bit samples but 16 is also possible. Try to make one hertz on the gram equal to 100 or more. The human ear is most sensitive to changes in freq at about 500Hz which is the freq of a typical human whistle. :-) gmvoeth __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: "Timothy Carpenter" GeoDynamics@....... Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 18:41:24 -0500 Some add'l info. http://techtran.msfc.nasa.gov/new/tornado.html http://www.waff.com/Global/story.asp?S=3D1275953 continue google search with "Frank Tatum" and "Stan Vitton" plus = variously snail geophone seismic tornado -Tim- Timothy Carpenter, P.E., Pres., GeoDynamics Consultants, Inc. 5043 Whitlow Ct. Commerce Twp., Mi 48382 248-363-4529 (voice & fax) 248-766-1629 (cell) geodynamics@........... (primary) geodynamics@....... (secondary) =A0 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: Mauro Mariotti mariotti@......... Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 07:48:17 +0100 Hi Thomas, basicly during storm you get from the ground the motion picked and transmitted to the ground from the buildings, trees and high structures like antennas, pilons etc. All tall stuffs acts as lever to the ground transmitting A LOT of noise much more than you can expect. Is not for a chance the bests seismic stations are located deep underground and far from trees and high objects. So that is what you recorded, noise of turbulence inducted by the object over the surface. Not last also the ground itself is put in motion from the air pressure change but that is another story. Resonance effect related to the shape of the structures and the windspeed are present too. regards mauro At 21:14 2005/12/02, you wrote: >Below is a section of my website where I have posted stuff on the >Nov, 6 F3 tornado that passed by me. I am sure many of you don't >have tornadoes passing by your equipment very often. If you will >click on November 6 F3 ..... at this site >http://home.insightbb.com/~dickthomas01/, you will see some of the >damage and data. Your comments and expertise would be appreciated. > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body >of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2005 10:31:46 EST In a message dated 02/12/05, gmvoeth@........... writes: > Maybe one of you seismic gurus can invent a tornado detector > using a seismometer and a fft program somehow. Hi Geoff, Two US scientists were publicised as trying to do just that shortly after this severe tornado. You ought to be able to pick up severe turbulence and local thunder, but maybe the 10 Hz cutoff of most seismic systems will limit you. The seismic background noise certainly increases as a cold front or a storm system passes by. Deciding what is an incipient tornado and what are 'normal' storm system noise signals may be more difficult. You will also see a lot of wind related noise. Any structure protruding into the airflow generates a string of von Karman votrices downwind, to a distance over 100 x the height of the object. The frequency is proportional to the windspeed and inversely proportional to the width of the object. This applies from 'singing' phone wires to whole mountains. Trees and tall buildings couple their oscillations into ground motion at seismic frequencies. You can also couple up an amplifier + audio recorder to a geophone and actually listen to the environmental and other signals in the ground. When I get an unexpected / unexplained background signal, I 'listen in'. I can hear the tyre noise of cars on the main road from over 1,000 yards away. An apparently random, but fairly large local signal turned out to be when heavy lorry tyres ran over a depressed water drain in the road. Wind noise from trees are all too frequent events. You might have better luck for tornado warning using a large area Infrasound microphone, similar to those used for CTBT detectors. Tornadoes generate a lot of LF / VLF noise. If you buy one of the 60 to 80 nF capacity Piezo Sounder disks and use a FET input opamp with a 100 M Ohm input, you should get down to below 0.03 Hz, no problem. Piezo Sounder disks are made to convert electrical signals into sound waves, but they work very nicely converting LF sound waves into electrical signals! A two Litre thermos filled with low density polyurethane foam makes quite a good backing volume. You need to provide a capillary leak into the flask, so that very slow atmospheric pressure changes do not build up over time. The response of the disk will be from several hundred Hz down to the low frequency cutoff due to the opamp input RC time constant. You can fit a low pass filter to the input. This may consist of a rigid container, like a couple of large glass drinks bottles with a length of tube on the input and the output to set the roll off frequency. The direct analogy is a resistor connected to a capacitor followed by a resistor to the backing volume capacitor. Ideally, the filter capacity would be several times the size of the backing volume. These sort of systems are used in gliders for variometer lift / sink air pressure change indication, filtering out much of the higher frequency air turbulence signals. Incidentally, you can make a quite useful seismic sensor by fitting a weight to the centre of one of these disks. With a FET input opamp, they can out perform a geophone. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message=20= dated 02/12/05, gmvoeth@........... writes:

Maybe one of you seismic gu= rus can invent a tornado detector
using a seismometer and a fft program somehow.


Hi Geoff,

      Two US scientists were publicised a= s trying to do just that shortly after this severe tornado. You ought to be=20= able to pick up severe turbulence and local thunder, but maybe the 10 Hz cut= off of most seismic systems will limit you. The seismic background noise cer= tainly increases as a cold front or a storm system passes by. Deciding what=20= is an incipient tornado and what are 'normal' storm system noise signals may= be more difficult.

      You will also see a lot of wind rel= ated noise. Any structure protruding into the airflow generates a string of=20= von Karman votrices downwind, to a distance over 100 x the height of the obj= ect. The frequency is proportional to the windspeed and inversely proportion= al to the width of the object. This applies from 'singing' phone wires to wh= ole mountains. Trees and tall buildings couple their oscillations into groun= d motion at seismic frequencies.

      You can also couple up an amplifier= + audio recorder to a geophone and actually listen to the environmental and= other signals in the ground. When I get an unexpected / unexplained backgro= und signal, I 'listen in'. I can hear the tyre noise of cars on the main roa= d from over 1,000 yards away. An apparently random, but fairly large local s= ignal turned out to be when heavy lorry tyres ran over a depressed water dra= in in the road. Wind noise from trees are all too frequent events.

      You might have better luck for torn= ado warning using a large area Infrasound microphone, similar to those used=20= for CTBT detectors. Tornadoes generate a lot of LF / VLF noise. If you buy o= ne of the 60 to 80 nF capacity Piezo Sounder disks and use a FET input opamp= with a 100 M Ohm input, you should get down to below 0.03 Hz, no problem. P= iezo Sounder disks are made to convert electrical signals into sound waves,=20= but they work very nicely converting LF sound waves into electrical signals!=  

      A two Litre thermos filled with low= density polyurethane foam makes quite a good backing volume. You need to pr= ovide a capillary leak into the flask, so that very slow atmospheric pressur= e changes do not build up over time. The response of the disk will be from s= everal hundred Hz down to the low frequency cutoff due to the opamp input RC= time constant.=20

      You can fit a low pass filter to th= e input. This may consist of a rigid container, like a couple of large glass= drinks bottles with a length of tube on the input and the output to set the= roll off frequency. The direct analogy is a resistor connected to a capacit= or followed by a resistor to the backing volume capacitor. Ideally, the filt= er capacity would be several times the size of the backing volume. These sor= t of systems are used in gliders for variometer lift / sink air pressure cha= nge indication, filtering out much of the higher frequency air turbulence si= gnals.

      Incidentally, you can make a quite=20= useful seismic sensor by fitting a weight to the centre of one of these disk= s. With a FET input opamp, they can out perform a geophone.

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman
      
       
Subject: 16-bit A/D board for sale From: apsn apsn@........... Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2005 09:58:13 -0900 I have a used Larry Cochrane/Webtronics 16-bit A/D PC board for sale on eBay. I am selling it because I now have one of Larry's serial A/D boards. Here's the eBay link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5837305999 It needs to go to a good home. Bob Hammond Public Seismic Network - Alaska http://apsn.awcable.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: ebay auction From: Bob Barns royb1@........... Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 21:46:34 -0500 Wilmot Seismoscope Strong-Motion Earthquake Recorder Item number: 6586183795 ends 12/12 Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: ebay auction From: Bob Barns royb1@........... Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2005 21:48:38 -0500 Vibra-Tech Everlert II Seismometer Item number: 7569819748 ends 12/12 Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: 16-bit A/D board for sale From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 05:35:53 -0500 Hello Bob, I got all exited when I saw you board listed because I had been in conversations with Ken Smith who wrote Seismic Explorer http://www.equakenet.com/HTML/se_doc.html and he wrote me this. "We support Larry's 16-bit digitizer; we have not integrated the code for his newest units." So I was just about to order one from Larry when yours came out. It turns out that Ken is talking about Larry's new digitizer. The upshot is that I can't use the board I bid on. I will not retract my bid and if need be I will have it shipped to me and re-list it. If I do win I would be glad to pay for your expenses and have you re-list it. I would send you a paypal payment to cover your expenses including the paypal cost. I should have done my homework a bit better, all it would have taken was to re-read Larry's original email. I will be traveling to El Salvador latter today but will be checking my e-mail daily. Bob, I am sorry about this. Warmly, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: my bad From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 05:55:43 -0500 Hello Everyone, Sorry about my last message which was meant just for Bob. Regards, Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Earthquake Alarm From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 21:11:32 EST =20 I am taking this article with a grain of salt. What do you think? =20 --Bob =20 Earthquake Alarm=20 By: Tom Bleier and Friedemann Freund =20 Impending earthquakes have been sending us warning signals=E2=80=94and peop= le are=20 starting to listen =20 _http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/dec05/2367_=20 (http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/dec05/2367)=20
I am taking this article with a grain of salt. Wh= at do=20 you think?
 
--Bob
 
Earthquake Alarm
By: = Tom=20 Bleier and Friedemann Freund
Impending earthquakes have been sending us warning signals=E2= =80=94and=20 people are starting to listen
 
http://www.spectrum.ieee.or= g/dec05/2367
Subject: Re: Earthquake Alarm From: Canie canie@........... Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:20:55 -0800 Yes.. and nothing like this showed up prior to the Parkfield quake.. and=20 magentics and ELF/ULF were being monitored with ground based=20 instrumentation. Nothing heralded the upcoming quake that hit. It will be= =20 interesting to see if satellite instrumentation is different. I've set up= =20 a QuakeFinder instrument to monitor ULF frequencies. It will be interesting to see what other research finds... Canie At 09:11 PM 12/6/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I am taking this article with a grain of salt. What do you think? > >--Bob > >Earthquake Alarm >By: Tom Bleier and Friedemann Freund >Impending earthquakes have been sending us warning signals=E2=80=94and= people=20 >are starting to listen > >http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/dec05= /2367 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake Alarm From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2005 23:07:35 EST In a message dated 07/12/05, Bobhelenmcclure@....... writes: > I am taking this article with a grain of salt. What do you think? > That is not enough salt. Regards, Chris In a message=20= dated 07/12/05, Bobhelenmcclure@....... writes:

I am taking this article wi= th a grain of salt. What do you think?

      That is not enough salt.

      Regards,

      Chris
Subject: Re: earthquake alarm From: Dave Nelson davenn@............... Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:28:06 +1100 ohhh thats quick and harsh condemnation dont be so fast to condem guys, a little openmindedness to other possibilities can go a long way If we had had the same thoughts about space travel we would never left the ground to explore other planets Although these ideas are not new, they were still being talked about when I was doing my university geology studies 10 yrs ago maybe its just a matter of time till we have the appropriate electronics to routinely record the ELF signals etc maybe at the moment with the current receiver equip. it takes a really decent sized quake to generate enough ELF radio signal for us to record it maybe the ~ M6 events of parkfield are jst not big enuf cheers Dave __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake Alarm From: Tamati chief.cook.nz@............ Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:39:54 +1300 Hi Canie=20 Where's Parkfield, as you see I'm a Kiwi and Parkfield doesn't ring any = bells Cheers Tamati=20 (A Man of Many Mission's) Cheers Tamati From The Castle of Tamati, Hinemoa and Karauwa NZ6658 From The Castle of Tom, Robyn & The Dog NZ6658 =20 I'm Only a Stone Throw Away:- NZ-021-150-33-59 or NZ-07-855-0195 Bush Telegraph:- chief.cook.nz@............ Regular Pitshop:- Tamati = P.O.Box 19-356 CENTRAL = HAMILTON 2030=20 NEW = ZEALAND ----- Original Message -----=20 From: "Canie" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 3:20 PM Subject: Re: Earthquake Alarm Yes.. and nothing like this showed up prior to the Parkfield quake.. and = magentics and ELF/ULF were being monitored with ground based=20 instrumentation. Nothing heralded the upcoming quake that hit. It will = be=20 interesting to see if satellite instrumentation is different. I've set = up=20 a QuakeFinder instrument to monitor ULF frequencies. It will be interesting to see what other research finds... Canie At 09:11 PM 12/6/2005 -0500, you wrote: >I am taking this article with a grain of salt. What do you think? > >--Bob > >Earthquake Alarm >By: Tom Bleier and Friedemann Freund >Impending earthquakes have been sending us warning signals=E2=80=94and = people=20 >are starting to listen > >http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/de= c05/2367 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake Alarm From: Alexandr Yagodin midia@.............. Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:00:20 +0200 http://www.inauka.ru/blogs/article59860.html The sirs, you hi from Haifa! What for to search for that I already have found? It is necessary simply to give money to tests of system, and one station = I already have tested. http://www.seu.ru/members/earthquakes/protocol.htm=20 Best regards, Alexandr Yagodin ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bobhelenmcclure@.......... To: psn-l@................. Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 4:11 AM Subject: Earthquake Alarm I am taking this article with a grain of salt. What do you think? --Bob Earthquake Alarm=20 By: Tom Bleier and Friedemann Freund=20 Impending earthquakes have been sending us warning signals=E2=80=94and = people are starting to listen http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/dec05/2367= =EF=BB=BF
http://www.inauka.r= u/blogs/article59860.html
 

The sirs, you hi from = Haifa!

What for to search for that I already = have=20 found?

It is necessary simply to give money to = tests of=20 system, and one station I already have tested.

http://www.se= u.ru/members/earthquakes/protocol.htm=20

 

Best regards,

Alexandr Yagodin

 

----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bobhelenmcclure@....... =
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, = 2005 4:11=20 AM
Subject: Earthquake Alarm

I am taking this article with a grain of = salt. What=20 do you think?
 
--Bob
 
Earthquake Alarm
By: Tom=20 Bleier and Friedemann Freund
Impending earthquakes have been sending us warning = signals=E2=80=94and=20 people are starting to listen
 
http://www.spectrum.ieee= ..org/dec05/2367
Subject: Re: Earthquake Alarm From: Canie canie@........... Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:55:06 -0800 Hi Tamati. Parkfield, California is a place we fondly call "the earthquake= =20 capital of the world" - It is located in Central California, USA right on=20 the San Andreas Fault. http://quake.wr.usgs.gov/research/parkfield/ It is loaded up with all sorts of instruments designed to rack just about=20 everything from strain to magnetics, to ULF to tilt to shaking, etc... The city seems to have bout a 6.0 every 20 years or so.. so the USGS put=20 out lots of instruments in the hopes of learning more about earthquakes. Canie At 09:39 PM 12/7/2005 +1300, you wrote: >Hi Canie >Where's Parkfield, as you see I'm a Kiwi and Parkfield doesn't ring any= bells > >Cheers Tamati >(A Man of Many Mission's) > > >Cheers Tamati > From The Castle of Tamati, Hinemoa and Karauwa NZ6658 > From The Castle of Tom, Robyn & The Dog NZ6658 > >I'm Only a Stone Throw Away:- NZ-021-150-33-59 or NZ-07-855-0195 > Bush Telegraph:- chief.cook.nz@............ > Regular Pitshop:- Tamati > P.O.Box= =20 > 19-356 CENTRAL >=20 >HAMILTON 2030 > NEW= ZEALAND >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Canie" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 3:20 PM >Subject: Re: Earthquake Alarm > > >Yes.. and nothing like this showed up prior to the Parkfield quake.. and >magentics and ELF/ULF were being monitored with ground based >instrumentation. Nothing heralded the upcoming quake that hit. It will be >interesting to see if satellite instrumentation is different. I've set up >a QuakeFinder instrument to monitor ULF frequencies. > >It will be interesting to see what other research finds... > >Canie > >At 09:11 PM 12/6/2005 -0500, you wrote: > >I am taking this article with a grain of salt. What do you think? > > > >--Bob > > > >Earthquake Alarm > >By: Tom Bleier and Friedemann Freund > >Impending earthquakes have been sending us warning signals=E2=80=94and= people > >are starting to listen > > > >http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/dec= =20 > 05/2367 > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: "Thomas Dick" dickthomas01@............. Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 12:14:53 -0600 For "Geoff" and all the rest. The raw data is now accessible on the seismic page of my web site (http://home.insightbb.com/~dickthomas01/). Sorry it took so long. The changing of the web site was a chore. I have a later version of the web site pending for upload that makes a stronger case for coorelation the travel/events created by the tornado and my seismic data. Presently missing on the website is data from four local members of the Weather Underground indicating the lack of wind after 7:29 UTC (look under historical data at each of these sites ... http://www.wunderground.com/US/IN/Evansville.html) Further comments welcomed! __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: School Seismic Station From: Jan Froom JDarwin@............. Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:26:51 -0800 Seismic Station at South Valley Middle School in Gilroy, California, USA is back on the air! http://www.gusd.k12.ca.us/southvalley/seismic The seismometers are located in an unused classroom, inside a plexiglas box, with their covers removed.... so the kids can see what an active seismometer looks like. Because of this... as well as being within a quarter mile of a railroad and freeway... the sensitivity can't be what we'd hope for... but we do see local events and the kids learn that things other than earthquakes shake the ground. Our Weather Station is at: http://www.gusd.k12.ca.us/southvalley/weather Jan Froom __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: tornadoes and earthquake detection From: "Timothy Carpenter" GeoDynamics@....... Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 13:30:12 -0500 Tom, The link on your Seismic page reads: =20 file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/user/My%20Documents/mywebsites/nov6= tor nado_files/data Seems like something is missing. In any event, the link doesn't work on = my system. Anxiously yours, -Tim- Timothy Carpenter, P.E., Pres., GeoDynamics Consultants, Inc. 5043 Whitlow Ct. Commerce Twp., Mi 48382 248-363-4529 (voice & fax) 248-766-1629 (cell) geodynamics@........... (primary) geodynamics@....... (secondary) =A0 -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... = On Behalf Of Thomas Dick Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 1:15 PM To: psn-l@.............. Subject: Re: tornadoes and earthquake detection For "Geoff" and all the rest. The raw data is now accessible on the = seismic=20 page of my web site (http://home.insightbb.com/~dickthomas01/). Sorry it = took so long. The changing of the web site was a chore. I have a later=20 version of the web site pending for upload that makes a stronger case = for=20 coorelation the travel/events created by the tornado and my seismic = data.=20 Presently missing on the website is data from four local members of the=20 Weather Underground indicating the lack of wind after 7:29 UTC (look = under=20 historical data at each of these sites ...=20 http://www.wunderground.com/US/IN/Evansville.html) Further comments=20 welcomed!=20 __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: School Seismic Station From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2005 14:30:27 EST In a message dated 07/12/05, JDarwin@............. writes: > Seismic Station at South Valley Middle School in Gilroy, California, > USA > is back on the air! http://www.gusd.k12.ca.us/southvalley/seismic > > The seismometers are located in an unused classroom, inside a plexiglas > box, with their covers removed.... so the kids can see what an active > seismometer looks like. > Because of this... as well as being within a quarter mile of a railroad and > freeway... the sensitivity can't be what we'd hope for... but we do see local > events and the kids learn that things other than earthquakes shake the > ground. Hi Jan, A couple of photos of the seismometers would be a great addition to the Website! Regards, Chris Chapman. In a message=20= dated 07/12/05, JDarwin@............. writes:


   Seismic=20= Station at South Valley Middle School in Gilroy, California, USA=20
is back on the air! http://www.gusd.k12.ca.us/southvalley/seismic

   The seismometers are located in an unused classroom,=20= inside a plexiglas box, with their covers removed.... so the kids can see wh= at an active seismometer looks like.
Because of this... as well as being within a quarter mile of a railroad=20= and freeway... the sensitivity can't be what we'd hope for... but we do see=20= local events and the kids learn that things other than earthquakes shake the= ground.


Hi Jan,

      A couple of photos of the seismomet= ers would be a great addition to the Website!

      Regards,

      Chris Chapman.
Subject: ebay auctions From: Bob Barns royb1@........... Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2005 10:19:17 -0500 Hi gang, SEISMOGRAPH 4010 Item number: 6234985763 ends 12/16 I don't know what to make of this. ---- Vintage Cylinder Phonograph? Seismograph? Item number: 6587449444 ends 12/16 I dont' know what to make of this, either. Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: ebay auction From: Bob Barns royb1@........... Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 08:52:29 -0500 Hi gang, GeoSonics SSU 2000DK Seismograph Earthquake Machine Item number: 7572952640 ends 12/19 *Bob * __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Hercules Quake M3.4 From: "Kareem at HeyJooJoo" system98765@............. Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2005 19:08:04 -0800 By now, many of you have probably heard the reports about yesterday morning's temblor centered in the Hercules area (M3.4 at 10:21am PDT). I experienced that quake while I was working at my computer. And like many of the other felt reports, it was a quick, single and sudden motion; much like a truck slamming into the side of the building. It was so like many other Hayward fault quakes which prompted me to accurately guess the magnitude of the event and its most likely source. No magical powers or anything like that - it's only due to my experience with having lived in the proximity of the Hayward fault for many years. I quickly checked the USGS online maps and sure enough, the temblor was shown. One interesting thing I noted in regards to this quake's epicenter is that it didn't line up along the northern extension of the Hayward fault. My question is regarding the dip in the Hayward Fault plane in this particular area. Is there a dip? How much? The epicenter appears to be some 5-6 miles east-northeast of the surface trace of the fault. Mind you, I am aware that not all quakes line up on the shown fault traces due to the fault's dip angle but I was not aware of any dip, to that degree in this area. This quake had a depth of 5.6 km. Does anyone have any comments? Kareem Lanier Heyjoojoo.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Hayward Fault orientation... From: "Kareem at HeyJooJoo" system98765@............. Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2005 19:53:13 -0800 Does anyone know of any sources for Hayward fault orientation charts? I can't seem to find anything online. I'm trying to ascertain the amount of dip on this fault in the Richmond area (northern segment). Kareem Lanier Heyjoojoo.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: ebay auction From: Bob Barns royb1@........... Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:18:42 -0500 Hi gang, SEISMOGRAPH 4010 Item number: 6237879871 ends Dec. 27 Bob __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: e-Quake Seismic Explorer From: Tamati chief.cook.nz@............ 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a2VuQGVxdWFrZW5ldC5jb20iPjxTVFJPTkc+a2VuQGVxdWFrZW5ldC5jb208L1NUUk9ORz48L0E+ PFNUUk9ORz4uPEJSPjxCUj5UaGFua3MsPEJSPkxhcnJ5IA0KQ29jaHJhbmU8QlI+UmVkd29vZCBD aXR5LCANClBTTjxCUj48QlI+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXzxCUj48QlI+UHVibGljIA0KU2Vpc21pYyBOZXR3b3JrIE1haWxp bmcgTGlzdCAoUFNOLUwpPEJSPjxCUj5UbyBsZWF2ZSB0aGlzIGxpc3QgZW1haWwgPC9TVFJPTkc+ PEEgDQpocmVmPSJtYWlsdG86UFNOLUwtUkVRVUVTVEBTRUlTTUlDTkVULkNPTSI+PFNUUk9ORz5Q U04tTC1SRVFVRVNUQFNFSVNNSUNORVQuQ09NPC9TVFJPTkc+PC9BPjxTVFJPTkc+IA0Kd2l0aCA8 QlI+dGhlIGJvZHkgb2YgdGhlIG1lc3NhZ2UgKGZpcnN0IGxpbmUgb25seSk6IHVuc3Vic2NyaWJl PEJSPlNlZSANCjwvU1RST05HPjxBIA0KaHJlZj0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy5zZWlzbWljbmV0LmNvbS9t YWlsbGlzdC5odG1sIj48U1RST05HPmh0dHA6Ly93d3cuc2Vpc21pY25ldC5jb20vbWFpbGxpc3Qu aHRtbDwvU1RST05HPjwvQT48U1RST05HPiANCmZvciBtb3JlIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uLjwvU1RST05H PjwvQk9EWT48L0hUTUw+DQo= Subject: Earthquake monitoring in Iceland From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr500@......... Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 18:30:07 +0000 Hi This is my first email message here, so i want to say hi with everybody. I did setup my first geophone one week ago. For those how have intrest in checking it here is a url http://www.jonfr.com/earthquake/earthquake.htm I am still at testing it, for possible errors and bugs and so on. The sensor is located in my apartment, but in a quiet spot. This week has been rater quiet in the terms of number of earthquakes. But you can check the Icelandic Meteorological office, earthquake part here > http://hraun.vedur.is/ja/englishweb/index.html But there is a alot of earthquakes in Iceland that i don't pickup on my one geophone. Mostly from 0,0 to 3 on the ricther scale. Best Regards. -- Jón Frímann Jónsson http://www.jonfr.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake monitoring in Iceland From: ian ian@........... Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 19:15:56 +0000 Hi, I may be your nearest neighbour (East Scotland). I have a 4.5 Hz Geophone and a Lehman long period. I don't normally pick up anything less than about 2.5 Mag with my geophone unless it is quite close. The recent Hemel Hempstead oil storage depot which exploded (and was equivalent to a 2.4 Magnitude) was not picked up by my geophone. The oil depot is about 300 miles south of where I am. I did get an excellant trace of the recent mag 3.0 quake near Fort William, which is about 75 miles away. See http://www.earthquakes.bgs.ac.uk/recent_events/recent_events.html for details. If possible, you should get the geophone out of the house. Then you can turn up the gain and hopefully pick up some events. Mine are on a concrete block away from the house. Unless you have a long period geophone you will be limited to fairly near by events. A great website for events is http://www.earthquakes.bgs.ac.uk/helicorder/heli.html , though right now the graphs haven't updated since the 24th. No doubt a fault which will be corrected when the staff return to work. The Edinburgh station is actually in the basement of the building I work in! You're welcome to check my system, http://www.iasmith.com/realtime.htm , though at the moment I'm trying to track down 2 problems: my Lehman is oscillating and I have an intermittent electrical fault somewhere which draws large annoying lines on the graphs occasionally. Ian Smith Jón Frímann wrote: >Hi > >This is my first email message here, so i want to say hi with everybody. >I did setup my first geophone one week ago. For those how have intrest >in checking it here is a url >http://www.jonfr.com/earthquake/earthquake.htm I am still at testing it, >for possible errors and bugs and so on. > >The sensor is located in my apartment, but in a quiet spot. This week >has been rater quiet in the terms of number of earthquakes. But you can >check the Icelandic Meteorological office, earthquake part here > >http://hraun.vedur.is/ja/englishweb/index.html But there is a alot of >earthquakes in Iceland that i don't pickup on my one geophone. Mostly >from 0,0 to 3 on the ricther scale. > >Best Regards. > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake monitoring in Iceland From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr500@......... Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 20:18:51 +0000 Hi You might well be the closest neighbour. I don't know of anybody with sesmintors or geophones near me here in Iceland. There might be alot of reasons why you don't get earthquakes that are below 2,5 on the ricther scale. The most obivus reasion in my mind is problay the noise in your area. But according the exsperts at the I.M.O that i did speak with, more the noise i get it is going to be harder for me to pickup small earthquakes. Lucky for me, the noise around me seems to be minimal. The house i life in is a concret made, and has a rock below it. So i think it is going to be easy for me to pick earthquakes near me, if they happen. The area i life in is not active, but the closest active regions are about 50 - 100 km away from me. In East and South of where i life. Both volcanos and fraction zones. I plan to build a brodband sisemonitors as soon as i can. The bad thing is that i can't place my geophone outside, becose of the weather, i will risk a weather damage to the geophone, not nessary from wather, but tempature changes. Regards. (Sorry for the spelling errors) -- Jón Frímann Jónsson http://www.jonfr.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Earthquake monitoring in Iceland/Scotland/ and the US From: John or Jan Lahr JohnJan@........ Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 12:49:57 -0800 Hi Ian and J=F3n, I'm confused about Ian's location. Your real=20 time plots are from Scotland but the Home link on that page goes to Hawaii? For both your pages and J=F3n's, it would be=20 helpful to include your station coordinates along=20 with the seismograms. Also, a link to a page=20 describing your sensors, electronics, and software would also be quite= helpful. J=F3n, I think you could increase your display gain=20 a bit. It's always good to be able to see a bit of the background noise. A summary page of helicorder records from=20 instruments provided by IRIS to educators is located here: http://jclahr.com/science/psn/as1/heli/allas1.php=20 These are very bare-bones instruments, but they=20 are well-sited to an educational environment and purpose. Good luck with the recording and all the best for=20 2006 for everyone on the PSN list! John Lahr Corvallis, Oregon At 11:15 AM 12/27/2005, you wrote: >Hi, > >I may be your nearest neighbour (East=20 >Scotland). I have a 4.5 Hz Geophone and a=20 >Lehman long period. I don't normally pick up=20 >anything less than about 2.5 Mag with my=20 >geophone unless it is quite close. The recent=20 >Hemel Hempstead oil storage depot which exploded=20 >(and was equivalent to a 2.4 Magnitude) was not=20 >picked up by my geophone. The oil depot is=20 >about 300 miles south of where I am. I did get=20 >an excellant trace of the recent mag 3.0 quake=20 >near Fort William, which is about 75 miles=20 >away. See=20 >http://www.earthquakes.bgs.ac.uk/recent_events/recent_events.html for= details. > >If possible, you should get the geophone out of=20 >the house. Then you can turn up the gain and=20 >hopefully pick up some events. Mine are on a=20 >concrete block away from the house. Unless you=20 >have a long period geophone you will be limited=20 >to fairly near by events. A great website for=20 >events is=20 >http://www.earthquakes.bgs.ac.uk/helicorder/heli.html=20 >, though right now the graphs haven't updated=20 >since the 24th. No doubt a fault which will be=20 >corrected when the staff return to work. The=20 >Edinburgh station is actually in the basement of the building I work in! > >You're welcome to check my system,=20 >http://www.iasmith.com/realtime.htm , though at=20 >the moment I'm trying to track down 2 problems:=20 >my Lehman is oscillating and I have an=20 >intermittent electrical fault somewhere which=20 >draws large annoying lines on the graphs occasionally. > >Ian Smith > >J=F3n Fr=EDmann wrote: > >>Hi >> >>This is my first email message here, so i want to say hi with everybody. >>I did setup my first geophone one week ago. For those how have intrest >>in checking it here is a url >>http://www.jonfr.com/earthquake/earthquake.htm I am still at testing it, >>for possible errors and bugs and so on. >> >>The sensor is located in my apartment, but in a quiet spot. This week >>has been rater quiet in the terms of number of earthquakes. But you can >>check the Icelandic Meteorological office, earthquake part here > >>http://hraun.vedur.is/ja/englishweb/index.html But there is a alot of >>earthquakes in Iceland that i don't pickup on my one geophone. Mostly >>from 0,0 to 3 on the ricther scale. >> >>Best Regards. >> >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email=20 >PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with the body of=20 >the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake monitoring in Iceland/Scotland/ and the US From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr500@......... Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 21:34:34 +0000 Hi John Lahr. My webpage is work in progress, i will soon split it up in english and icelandic pages. I have added the location of my geophone to it graphs, this is more or less the exact location. I will update it when i get better info, i problay will buy a gps clock to do that. When that happens i don't know. I have also increased the display gain, it is now set to 5, but that shows the background noise just fine. It will appear on the grahps when they are next updated. I welcome comments. Best Regards. -- Jón Frímann Jónsson http://www.jonfr.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake monitoring in Iceland/Scotland/ and the US From: ian ian@........... Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 22:42:04 +0000 sorry about the location confusion. I used to live in Hawaii and I haven't changed all the pages of my web yet. I hesitate to put precise co-ordinates for no better reason than paranoia and the mad idea that a thief would know where to locate my equipment! Total paranoia... Whenever I submit a psn file, it does have the co-ords. I'm at 55.949N, 2.72W. I have a stand alone rs232 12 bit A/D sampling each channel at 50 sps. Each analogue signal passes through a Krohn-Hite 3322 band pass filter / amplifier. The software is home made C code using the pgplot library for the graphs running on a linux system which includes the web server. I should of course put all this on the web site. The site will appear slow as my broadband connection is via a satellite link. Jón's house sitting on a rock sounds good but the sensor will presumably pick up noise from activity in the house. Whilst I have mine outside, my concrete pad is sitting on clay. The deepest I have ventured down, when the house was being extended, is 5m and there was no sign of rock. I'm located in the middle of a farm and the nearest road is half a mile away, so I only get road noise when the farmer passes by, as can be seen on the geophone trace! The coldest my geophone has experienced must be around -6 Centigrade. I'm sure it will get much colder in Iceland but I'm not sure what type of damage that would cause. The electronics and computer are of course inside! I have about 15 m of "satellite" co-ax cable connecting it to the amplifier via a lightning arrestor. Cheers Ian Jón Frímann wrote: >Hi John Lahr. > >My webpage is work in progress, i will soon split it up in english and >icelandic pages. I have added the location of my geophone to it graphs, >this is more or less the exact location. I will update it when i get >better info, i problay will buy a gps clock to do that. When that >happens i don't know. > >I have also increased the display gain, it is now set to 5, but that >shows the background noise just fine. It will appear on the grahps when >they are next updated. > >I welcome comments. > >Best Regards. > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake monitoring in Iceland/Scotland/ and the US From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr500@......... Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 23:01:37 +0000 Hi Actually, haveing the geophone outside will create alot more noise, becose of the wind and rain, ect... The east-west noise problay is becose of the ocen hitting on the beach that is close to me (about 300 - 500m away from the house). The noise pickup from within my apartment is low, becose i life a alone. I do however life in a block, but i am on ground floor. My rock beneth the house probly exstense few km down, becose this is a old exstish volcano that the town is build on. There is however a sandpocet that the house actually stands on before the rock comes, i don't know how thik it is, but it problay is few meters. Sorry for the spelling erros. Regards. -- Jón Frímann Jónsson http://www.jonfr.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Earthquake monitoring in Iceland/Scotland/ and the US From: "Bob Shannon" earth@........... Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:02:11 -0800 Ian (and Jon); Do you have Irish Travelers in your area? That is good reason to worry and not paranoia. I don't blame you. Those folk can be unpleasant As to Jon...You are in the right place to learn. There are dozens of techies here, some of who wrote the original software. Simple questions can lead to a multitude of new ideas and answers. I find your location to be of great interest. Bob Shannon Pinpoint Newsletter -----Original Message----- From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... On Behalf Of ian sorry about the location confusion. I used to live in Hawaii and I haven't changed all the pages of my web yet. I hesitate to put precise co-ordinates for no better reason than paranoia and the mad idea that a thief would know where to locate my equipment! Total paranoia... __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: RE: Earthquake monitoring in Iceland/Scotland/ and the US From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr500@......... Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 00:34:46 +0000 Hi Bob Shannon. I don't get alot of travellers from Ireland in my area and there are really few travellers over the winter time. Alot worse weather for me in that time. I am about 50 - 100 km away from the nearest volcanos (four to be exact), but they have been quiet for long time, at least for 10.000 years. However, earthquake swarms sometimes appears on those areas and last for long time. I might be able to pickup those earthquakes. Here is a volcano map of iceland. http://www.union.edu/PUBLIC/GEODEPT/COURSES/petrology/labs/iceland/Iceland%20geologic%20map%202.gif I didn't find a map of Iceland showing it's fracture zones. However, there are one west of me and one east of me. But i am between two fracture zones that are active, however the one west of me doesn't move often. There is also a fracture zone south of me (about 200 km away from me) and that is active today. It did producse a two 6,5 ricther scale earthquakes in the year 2000. Past three weeks have been quiet in Iceland, i haven't seen one earthquake over 3 on the ricther scale. Regards. -- Jón Frímann Jónsson http://www.jonfr.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake monitoring in Iceland/Scotland/ and the US From: ian ian@........... Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 09:23:19 +0000 Hi, no travelers, just paranoia! :-) Outside I have my geophone and Lehman in an insulated waterproof enclosure which sits over the concrete pad. This keeps the wind and rain out. The only thing I can think of that would "damage" the geophone is that if it got really cold, the spring inside the geophone would change its characteristics and may not work too well. How cold does it get? I'm not sure that your geophone would be anymore sensitive to the crashing of the waves if it were placed outside. Perhaps an experiment for the better weather. Ian Bob Shannon wrote: >Ian (and Jon); > Do you have Irish Travelers in your area? That is good reason to worry >and not paranoia. I don't blame you. Those folk can be unpleasant > As to Jon...You are in the right place to learn. There are dozens of >techies here, some of who wrote the original software. Simple questions >can lead to a multitude of new ideas and answers. I find your location >to be of great interest. >Bob Shannon >Pinpoint Newsletter > >-----Original Message----- >From: psn-l-request@.............. [mailto:psn-l-request@............... >On Behalf Of ian > >sorry about the location confusion. I used to live in Hawaii and I >haven't changed all the pages of my web yet. I hesitate to put precise >co-ordinates for no better reason than paranoia and the mad idea that a >thief would know where to locate my equipment! Total paranoia... > >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > > __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake monitoring in Iceland/Scotland/ and the US From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 07:17:20 EST In a message dated 28/12/2005, ian@........... writes: Outside I have my geophone and Lehman in an insulated waterproof enclosure which sits over the concrete pad. This keeps the wind and rain out. The only thing I can think of that would "damage" the geophone is that if it got really cold, the spring inside the geophone would change its characteristics and may not work too well. How cold does it get? I'm not sure that your geophone would be anymore sensitive to the crashing of the waves if it were placed outside. Hi Ian, If you are using one of Larry's L15B units, you should be able to seal it with the "non acetic acid" type of silicone rubber sealant OK. This should be good from -40 C to 70 C. The Geospace geophones seem mostly rated from -45 C to 100 C, but I am not sure about the plastic case for the higher temperature. An alternative sealant which I use is Blue-Tack / White-Tack from a stationery supplier. It is a putty like, non hardening adhesive sold for attaching posters etc to walls without damaging or staining the surface finish. It is not available in the USA. I agree about the environmental noise, but you could get more wind noise in an outside location. This is likely in Iceland. I use a SEQUA10 frequency extension board from _http://www.sara.pg.it/prod04_04_e.htm_ (http://www.sara.pg.it/prod04_04_e.htm) They cost E30 and extend the low frequency response of a 4.5 Hz geophone down to 1/10 the natural frequency, a bit like the low frequency boost circuit on a HiFi amplifier. This enables you to sense both P and S waves, at 1.0 and 0.5 Hz, for local, regional and teleseismic events with a 4.5 Hz geophone. It is a modified version of the Roberts' circuit. Regards, Chris Chapman
In a message dated 28/12/2005, ian@........... writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>Outside=20 I have my geophone and Lehman in an insulated waterproof enclosure which s= its=20 over the concrete pad. This keeps the wind and rain out. The only thi= ng I=20 can think of that would "damage" the geophone is that if it got really col= d,=20 the spring inside the geophone would change its characteristics and may no= t=20 work too well.  How cold does it get?

I'm not sure that your=20 geophone would be anymore sensitive to the
crashing of the waves if it= =20 were placed outside. 
Hi Ian,
 
    If you are using one of Larry's L15B units, you= =20 should be able to seal it with the "non acetic acid" type of silicone rubber= =20 sealant OK. This should be good from -40 C to 70 C. The Geospace geophones s= eem=20 mostly rated from -45 C to 100 C, but I am not sure about the plastic c= ase=20 for the higher temperature. An alternative sealant which I use is=20 Blue-Tack / White-Tack from a stationery supplier. It is a putty like, non=20 hardening adhesive sold for attaching posters etc to walls without dama= ging=20 or staining the surface finish. It is not available in the USA.
 
    I agree about the environmental noise, but you=20 could get more wind noise in an outside location. This is likely in=20 Iceland.
 
    I use a SEQUA10 frequency extension board from=20= http://www.sara.pg.it/prod04_= 04_e.htm
They cost E30 and extend the low frequency response of a 4.5=20 Hz geophone down to 1/10 the natural frequency, a bit like the low= =20 frequency boost circuit on a HiFi amplifier. This enables you to sense both=20= P=20 and S waves, at 1.0 and 0.5 Hz, for local, regional and teleseismic events w= ith=20 a 4.5 Hz geophone. It is a modified version of the Roberts' circuit.
 
    Regards,
 
    Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Earthquake monitoring in Iceland/Scotland/ and the US From: ian ian@........... Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 14:02:14 +0000 Hi, I have a Mark Products L10B geophone. It has a metal case and is fairly well sealed. The lowest temperatures we normal get here is -10 C and inside the enclosure it will be slightly warmer. Right now it's a balmy -0.1 C The SEQUA10 looks interesting, though there isn't much detail on the webside. Does it work by just boosting the lower frequencies? If so, I can adjust my programmable filter to do the same thing, never thought about that... Presumably this lowers the overall sensitivity of the device(?). Would you move the upper frequency down too or keep it just above its natural frequency - 4.5 Hz? Thanks Ian ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: > In a message dated 28/12/2005, ian@........... writes: > > Outside I have my geophone and Lehman in an insulated waterproof > enclosure which sits over the concrete pad. This keeps the wind > and rain out. The only thing I can think of that would "damage" > the geophone is that if it got really cold, the spring inside the > geophone would change its characteristics and may not work too > well. How cold does it get? > > I'm not sure that your geophone would be anymore sensitive to the > crashing of the waves if it were placed outside. > > Hi Ian, > > If you are using one of Larry's L15B units, you should be able to > seal it with the "non acetic acid" type of silicone rubber sealant OK. > This should be good from -40 C to 70 C. The Geospace geophones seem > mostly rated from -45 C to 100 C, but I am not sure about the plastic > case for the higher temperature. An alternative sealant which I use is > Blue-Tack / White-Tack from a stationery supplier. It is a putty like, > non hardening adhesive sold for attaching posters etc to walls without > damaging or staining the surface finish. It is not available in the USA. > > I agree about the environmental noise, but you could get more wind > noise in an outside location. This is likely in Iceland. > > I use a SEQUA10 frequency extension board from > http://www.sara.pg.it/prod04_04_e.htm > They cost E30 and extend the low frequency response of a 4.5 > Hz geophone down to 1/10 the natural frequency, a bit like the low > frequency boost circuit on a HiFi amplifier. This enables you to sense > both P and S waves, at 1.0 and 0.5 Hz, for local, regional and > teleseismic events with a 4.5 Hz geophone. It is a modified version of > the Roberts' circuit. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman Hi,

I have a Mark Products L10B geophone.  It has a metal case and is fairly well sealed.  The lowest temperatures we normal get here is -10 C and inside the enclosure it will be slightly warmer.  Right now it's a balmy -0.1 C

The SEQUA10 looks interesting, though there isn't much detail on the webside.  Does it work by just boosting the lower frequencies?  If so, I can adjust my programmable filter to do the same thing, never thought about that...  Presumably this lowers the overall sensitivity of the device(?).  Would you move the upper frequency down too or keep it just above its natural frequency - 4.5 Hz?

Thanks

Ian

ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote:
In a message dated 28/12/2005, ian@........... writes:
Outside I have my geophone and Lehman in an insulated waterproof enclosure which sits over the concrete pad. This keeps the wind and rain out. The only thing I can think of that would "damage" the geophone is that if it got really cold, the spring inside the geophone would change its characteristics and may not work too well.  How cold does it get?

I'm not sure that your geophone would be anymore sensitive to the
crashing of the waves if it were placed outside. 
Hi Ian,
 
    If you are using one of Larry's L15B units, you should be able to seal it with the "non acetic acid" type of silicone rubber sealant OK. This should be good from -40 C to 70 C. The Geospace geophones seem mostly rated from -45 C to 100 C, but I am not sure about the plastic case for the higher temperature. An alternative sealant which I use is Blue-Tack / White-Tack from a stationery supplier. It is a putty like, non hardening adhesive sold for attaching posters etc to walls without damaging or staining the surface finish. It is not available in the USA.
 
    I agree about the environmental noise, but you could get more wind noise in an outside location. This is likely in Iceland.
 
    I use a SEQUA10 frequency extension board from http://www.sara.pg.it/prod04_04_e.htm
They cost E30 and extend the low frequency response of a 4.5 Hz geophone down to 1/10 the natural frequency, a bit like the low frequency boost circuit on a HiFi amplifier. This enables you to sense both P and S waves, at 1.0 and 0.5 Hz, for local, regional and teleseismic events with a 4.5 Hz geophone. It is a modified version of the Roberts' circuit.
 
    Regards,
 
    Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Earthquake monitoring in Iceland/Scotland/ and the US >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: Hi Ian, If you are using one of Larry's L15B units, you should be able to se= al it with the "non acetic acid" type of silicone rubber sealant OK. Thi= s should be good from -40 C to 70 C. The Geospace geophones seem mostly = rated from -45 C to 100 C, but I am not sure about the plastic case for = the higher temperature. An alternative sealant which I use is Blue-Tack = / White-Tack from a stationery supplier. It is a putty like, non hardeni= ng adhesive sold for attaching posters etc to walls without damaging or = staining the surface finish. It is not available in the USA. I agree about the environmental noise, but you could get more wind = noise in an outside location. This is likely in Iceland. I use a SEQ= UA10 frequency extension board from http://www.sara.pg.it/prod04_04_e.ht= mThey cost E30 and extend the low frequency response of a 4.5 Hz geophon= e down to 1/10 the natural frequency, a bit like the low frequency boost= circuit on a HiFi amplifier. This enables you to sense both P and S wav= es, at 1.0 and 0.5 Hz, for local, regional and teleseismic events with a= 4.5 Hz geophone. It is a modified version of the Roberts' circuit. = Regards, Chris Chapman

Hi Chris- Thanks for the comment on Robert's Circuit- Equalizer= Board as I have used Mauro's commercial version (SEQUA10 ) and fou= nd it to be quite good.

Question-
Do you believe a digital inverse filter would work= just as good?
BTW_ I enjoy reading all your comments...Thanks....Jim=

           &nb= sp;      Jim O'Donnell     =
         Geological/Geophysi= cal Consultant
         =    GEOTECHNICAL APPLICATIONS
702.293.5664    = ; geophysics@..........
702.281.9081 cell        &n= bsp; 
jim@..........
>&= gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&= gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&= gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>&= gt;>>>
-- ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote:
Hi Ian,
 &nb= sp;  If you are using one of Larry's L15B units, you should be= able to seal it with the "non acetic acid" type of silicone rubber seal= ant OK. This should be good from -40 C to 70 C. The Geospace geophones s= eem mostly rated from -45 C to 100 C, but I am not sure about the p= lastic case for the higher temperature. An alternative sealant which = I use is Blue-Tack / White-Tack from a stationery supplier. It is a = putty like, non hardening adhesive sold for attaching posters etc t= o walls without damaging or staining the surface finish. It is not avail= able in the USA.

 
    I agree about the environmental noise, but = you could get more wind noise in an outside location. This is likely in = Iceland.
 
    I use a SEQUA10 frequency extension board f= rom http://www.sara.pg= ..it/prod04_04_e.htm
They cost E30 and extend the low frequency response of a 4.5 Hz&nbs= p;geophone down to 1/10 the natural frequency, a bit like the low f= requency boost circuit on a HiFi amplifier. This enables you to sense bo= th P and S waves, at 1.0 and 0.5 Hz, for local, regional and teleseismic= events with a 4.5 Hz geophone. It is a modified version of the Roberts'= circuit.
 
    Regards,
 
    Chris Chapman
Subject: Re: Earthquake monitoring in Iceland/Scotland/ and the US From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 13:41:22 -0500 >>   I have a Mark Products L10B geophone. It has a metal case and is fairly well sealed. The lowest temperatures we normal get here is -10 C and inside the enclosure it will be slightly warmer. Hi Ian,     Those temperatures should not be a any problem at all. >>   The SEQUA10 looks interesting, though there isn't much detail on the webside. Does it work by just boosting the lower frequencies?       You set up your geophone to be critically damped. The additional amplifier has a frequency selective gain which tailors into the damping curve. The gain down to 1/10 the natural resonance is increased to a max of x100 to compensate for the f^2 natural rolloff. The overall response stays flat with velocity from 0.5 Hz to your low pass filter rolloff of maybe 10 Hz. Below 0.5 Hz the amplification falls off sharply again. >>   If so, I can adjust my programmable filter to do the same thing, never thought about that...  Presumably this lowers the overall sensitivity of the device(?). Would you move the upper frequency down too or keep it just above its natural frequency - 4.5 Hz?     You will quickly run into digitisation step / noise problems if you try to do it that way, unless you have the overall amplifier gain set WAY UP. Can you even set up your filter to have a reciprocal f^2 response reducing to unity at about 9 Hz and falling again below 0.5 Hz? The overall output voltage sensitivity stays the same, just the bandwidth is increased. There is a small increase in the overall noise. The major ++ is being able to detect the P and S waves directly with a 4.5 Hz geophone.     The original Roberts' circuit used a high pass filter which was still sensitive to 1/f VLF noise. Using a modified filter circuit has removed most of that noise.     Regards,     Chris Chapman __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Earthquake monitoring in Iceland/Scotland/ and the US From: ian ian@........... Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 19:40:38 +0000 Hi, my Krone-Hite 3322 is a standard band pass filter. The low pass can be either "max flat" or RC, I have max flat seletected. The high pass is just high pass. Each half can have either 0 or 20db gain, I have 20db selected for both halves of the filter. The bands can be set as low as 1 milliHertz and as high as 99 KHz. My A/D is set to 125 microVolts per data number. The geophone, as far as I can remember, has an internal resister, so presumably it is set up for 4.5 Hz. So perhaps not ideal. I might have to save up my Euros... Cheers Ian ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote: >>> I have a Mark Products L10B geophone. It has a metal case and is fairly well sealed. The lowest temperatures we normal get here is -10 C and inside the enclosure it will be slightly warmer. >>> >>> > >Hi Ian, > > Those temperatures should not be a any problem at all. > > > >>> The SEQUA10 looks interesting, though there isn't much detail on the webside. Does it work by just boosting the lower frequencies? >>> >>> > > You set up your geophone to be critically damped. The additional amplifier has a frequency selective gain which tailors into the damping curve. The gain down to 1/10 the natural resonance is increased to a max of x100 to compensate for the f^2 natural rolloff. The overall response stays flat with velocity from 0.5 Hz to your low pass filter rolloff of maybe 10 Hz. Below 0.5 Hz the amplification falls off sharply again. > > > >>> If so, I can adjust my programmable filter to do the same thing, never thought about that... Presumably this lowers the overall sensitivity of the device(?). Would you move the upper frequency down too or keep it just above its natural frequency - 4.5 Hz? >>> >>> > > You will quickly run into digitisation step / noise problems if you try to do it that way, unless you have the overall amplifier gain set WAY UP. Can you even set up your filter to have a reciprocal f^2 response reducing to unity at about 9 Hz and falling again below 0.5 Hz? The overall output voltage sensitivity stays the same, just the bandwidth is increased. There is a small increase in the overall noise. The major ++ is being able to detect the P and S waves directly with a 4.5 Hz geophone. > > The original Roberts' circuit used a high pass filter which was still sensitive to 1/f VLF noise. Using a modified filter circuit has removed most of that noise. > > Regards, > > Chris Chapman >__________________________________________________________ > >Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) > >To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with >the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe >See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information. > > > Hi,

my Krone-Hite 3322 is a standard band pass filter.  The low pass can be either "max flat" or RC, I have max flat seletected.  The high pass is just high pass.  Each half can have either 0 or 20db gain, I have 20db selected for both halves of the filter.  The bands can be set as low as 1 milliHertz and as high as 99 KHz.  My A/D is set to 125 microVolts per data number.  The geophone, as far as I can remember, has an internal resister, so presumably it is set up for 4.5 Hz.

So perhaps not ideal.  I might have to save up my Euros...

Cheers

Ian

ChrisAtUpw@....... wrote:
  I have a Mark Products L10B geophone. It has a metal case and is fairly well sealed. The lowest temperatures we normal get here is -10 C and inside the enclosure it will be slightly warmer.
      

Hi Ian,

     Those temperatures should not be a any problem at all.

  
  The SEQUA10 looks interesting, though there isn't much detail on the webside. Does it work by just boosting the lower frequencies?  
      

     You set up your geophone to be critically damped. The additional amplifier has a frequency selective gain which tailors into the damping curve. The gain down to 1/10 the natural resonance is increased to a max of x100 to compensate for the f^2 natural rolloff. The overall response stays flat with velocity from 0.5 Hz to your low pass filter rolloff of maybe 10 Hz. Below 0.5 Hz the amplification falls off sharply again.

  
  If so, I can adjust my programmable filter to do the same thing, never thought about that...  Presumably this lowers the overall sensitivity of the device(?). Would you move the upper frequency down too or keep it just above its natural frequency - 4.5 Hz?
      

     You will quickly run into digitisation step / noise problems if you try to do it that way, unless you have the overall amplifier gain set WAY UP. Can you even set up your filter to have a reciprocal f^2 response reducing to unity at about 9 Hz and falling again below 0.5 Hz? The overall output voltage sensitivity stays the same, just the bandwidth is increased. There is a small increase in the overall noise. The major ++ is being able to detect the P and S waves directly with a 4.5 Hz geophone. 

     The original Roberts' circuit used a high pass filter which was still sensitive to 1/f VLF noise. Using a modified filter circuit has removed most of that noise.

     Regards,

     Chris Chapman
__________________________________________________________

Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L)

To leave this list email PSN-L-REQUEST@.............. with 
the body of the message (first line only): unsubscribe
See http://www.seismicnet.com/maillist.html for more information.

  
Subject: Re: Earthquake monitoring in Iceland/Scotland/ and the US From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2005 15:27:42 -0500 Hi Chris- Thanks for the comment on Robert's Circuit- Equalizer Board as I have used Mauro's commercial version (SEQUA10) and found it to be quite good. Question- Do you believe a digital inverse filter would work just as good? Thanks.                  Jim O'Donnell             Geological/Geophysical Consultant Hi Jim,     You need a filter which has an inverse f^2 relationship from 0.5 Hz up to 4.5 Hz and that merges into a x1 gain by about 9 Hz. The gain should also drop off sharply below 0.5 Hz to remove VLF noise. There must be NO zero output pole at 4.5 Hz. I do not know enough about the current digital filter designs to give a firm opinion as to how practicable this is, but 'probably not' in answer to your question.         The other problem is that the additional x100 gain at 0.5 Hz has to come from somewhere. If it is not provided by an auxiliary amplifier, it will have to come from the main amplifier, probably reducing the range and increasing the noise a bit. You also have the stepwise digitisation to cope with. This can limit the accuracy of the compensation process.     If you had a signal of 1,000 counts at 4.5 Hz, there will be just 10 counts at 1/10 the frequency to do any compensation. Using an additional compensation amplifier is likely to give better results. Lower signal levels cannot be fully compensated - the digital signal is just not available - unless you are either using a 24 bit ADC, or are using an oversampling technique to increase the accuracy.       I understand that the current SEQUA10 is a significantly 'improved' version of the original. I have seen a modified version used with a 2 Hz geophone with very good results, in comparison with a Willmore.     Regards,     Chris Chapman __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Intresting artical From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr500@......... Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 03:00:36 +0000 Hi all Since i am in the learnig busness of how to use geophones and seismonitors i did find an intresting artical that pepole here might find useful. The artical is in the link below, it is a pdf file. http://www.iris.edu/stations/seisWorkshop04/seisWorkshop.htm Regards. -- Jón Frímann Jónsson http://www.jonfr.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Intresting artical From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 08:21:08 EST In a message dated 29/12/2005, jonfr500@......... writes: > Since I am in the learning business of how to use geophones and > seismometers I did find an interesting article that people here might > find useful. The article is in the link below, it is a pdf file. > http://www.iris.edu/stations/seisWorkshop04/seisWorkshop.htm Hi Jon, This is the link to the March 2004 Granlibakken Conference on very long period seismometers. There is one link to Barzilai's extended period geophone, more full described on the Stanford Website at http://micromachine.stanford.edu/smssl/projects/Geophones/ Neither the text, the circuit, nor the construction seem to have been updated or developed in the last four years. The digital detector circuit is quite noisy and the construction seems to be far from optimal. The external cylinder of a geophone was cut into two equal halves to insert a capacitative pickup. Slide 16 shows a noise level about 100x that of a Guralp CMG-40T and worse than a conventional geophone above about 0.2 Hz. This does NOT seem to be the best way to modify a geophone. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 29/12/2005, jonf= r500@......... writes:

Since I am in the learning busi= ness of how to use geophones and
seismometers I did find an interesting article that people here might
find useful. The article is in the link below, it is a pdf file.
http://www.iris.edu/stations/seisWorkshop04/seisWorkshop.htm

Hi Jon,

       This is the link to the March 2004 Gran= libakken Conference on very long period seismometers.

       There is one link to Barzilai's extende= d period geophone, more full described on the Stanford Website at http://micro= machine.stanford.edu/smssl/projects/Geophones/
       Neither the text, the circuit, nor the=20= construction seem to have been updated or developed in the last four years.=20= The digital detector circuit is quite noisy and the construction seems to be= far from optimal. The external cylinder of a geophone was cut into two equa= l halves to insert a capacitative pickup. Slide 16 shows a noise level about= 100x that of a Guralp CMG-40T and worse than a conventional geophone above=20= about 0.2 Hz. This does NOT seem to be the best way to modify a geophone.
       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Leap Second From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 21:50:16 EST There will be an additional second added to UTC at the end of year 2005, so your data logger will need a time adjustment. For detailed information, consult _http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/techbeat/tb2005_1222.htm_ (http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/techbeat/tb2005_1222.htm) Bob
There will be an additional second added to UTC at the end of year 2005= , so=20 your data logger will need a time adjustment. For detailed information,=20 consult
 
http://= www.nist.gov/public_affairs/techbeat/tb2005_1222.htm
 
Bob
Subject: Harmonic tremors and 4.5Hz Geophone From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=F3n_Fr=EDmann?= jonfr500@......... Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 06:40:43 +0000 Hi all I am wondering about harmonic tremors and a 4,5Hz geophone that i have. I know from a data that is on the internet, that harmonic tremors can be on 5 - 6Hz or lower and higer (it depends on many factors). I am wondering how well i will pickup harmonic tremors, when they happen here in Iceland. I also wonder how they are displayed in Winsdr program. Best Regards. -- Jón Frímann Jónsson http://www.jonfr.com __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Harmonic tremors and 4.5Hz Geophone From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 07:55:53 EST In a message dated 30/12/2005, jonfr500@......... writes: > I am wondering about harmonic tremors and a 4,5Hz geophone that I have. > I know from a data that is on the internet, that harmonic tremors can be > on 5 - 6Hz or lower and higer (it depends on many factors). Hi Jon, Can you give me a reference / source / website for what you are calling 'harmonic tremors', please? The name does not mean anything to me. There are the universal ocean background signals, or microseisms, lying in the period range of 4 to 9 seconds, more usually about 6 seconds = 0.17 Hz, NOT 6 Hz. The amplitude may be from 0.5 micron to over 15 microns in storm conditions. You probably won't pick this up on your 4.5 Hz geophone, unless there is a severe storm locally. If you live near the sea, you may also observe waves breaking on the shore. The other regular tremors which can bother seismologists over a wide range of frequencies, are caused by wind noise. These can be from the several hundred Hz singing noise of telephone wires down to many 10s of seconds produced by whole mountains. The frequency is directly proportional to the local wind speed and inversely proportional to the cross wind dimension (width) of the object, tree, building, etc. producing it. You can expect to feel the effects for over 100x the dimension of the object in a downwind direction. Tall buildings and trees will radiate vibrations locally through the ground. If you have ever driven a motorcycle fairly closely behind a high lorry, you may have noticed the alternate left and right gusts typical of these Von Karman vortices. Regards, Chris Chapman In a message dated 30/12/2005, jonf= r500@......... writes:

I am wondering about harmonic t= remors and a 4,5Hz geophone that I have.
I know from a data that is on the internet, that harmonic tremors can be
on 5 - 6Hz or lower and higer (it depends on many factors).


Hi Jon,

       Can you give me a reference / source /=20= website for what you are calling 'harmonic tremors', please? The name does n= ot mean anything to me.

       There are the universal ocean backgroun= d signals, or microseisms, lying in the period range of 4 to 9 seconds, more= usually about 6 seconds =3D 0.17 Hz, NOT 6 Hz. The amplitude may be=20= from 0.5 micron to over 15 microns in storm conditions. You probably won't p= ick this up on your 4.5 Hz geophone, unless there is a severe storm locally.= If you live near the sea, you may also observe waves breaking on the shore.=

       The other regular tremors which can bot= her seismologists over a wide range of frequencies, are caused by wind noise= .. These can be from the several hundred Hz singing noise of telephone wires=20= down to many 10s of seconds produced by whole mountains. The frequency is di= rectly proportional to the local wind speed and inversely proportional to th= e cross wind dimension (width) of the object, tree, building, etc. producing= it. You can expect to feel the effects for over 100x the dimension of the o= bject in a downwind direction. Tall buildings and trees will radiate vibrati= ons locally through the ground. If you have ever driven a motorcycle fairly=20= closely behind a high lorry, you may have noticed the alternate left and rig= ht gusts typical of these Von Karman vortices.

       Regards,

       Chris Chapman
Subject: Re[2]: Harmonic tremors and 4.5Hz Geophone From: Angel sismos@.............. Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 13:19:33 +0000 Hi Chris, http://earthquake.usgs.gov/image_glossary/harmonic_tremor.html Angel __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Re: Re[2]: Harmonic tremors and 4.5Hz Geophone From: ChrisAtUpw@....... Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 09:39:35 EST In a message dated 30/12/2005, sismos@.............. writes: > http://earthquake.usgs.gov/image_glossary/harmonic_tremor.html Hi Angel, Thanks. There seems to be no information on frequency, period, or amplitude even on the volcano website. See also http://earthquake.usgs.gov/image_glossary/richter_scale.html http://earthquake.usgs.gov/image_glossary/seismic_moment.html http://earthquake.usgs.gov/image_glossary/magnitude.html Regards, Chris In a message dated 30/12/2005, sism= os@.............. writes:

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/imag= e_glossary/harmonic_tremor.html


Hi Angel,

       Thanks. There seems to be no informatio= n on frequency, period, or amplitude even on the volcano website.

       See also http://earthquake.usgs.gov/image_= glossary/richter_scale.html

       http://earthquake.usgs.gov/image_glossary= /seismic_moment.html

       http://earthquake.usgs.gov/image_glossary/magn= itude.html

       Regards,
      
       Chris
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Harmonic tremors and 4.5Hz Geophone From: John or Jan Lahr JohnJan@........ Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 18:22:49 -0800 From: http://pubs.usgs.gov/pinatubo/ramos/ HARMONIC TREMOR The type of tremor with the narrowest frequency spectra is the harmonic tremor. Every event of this tremor is monochromatic, occurring with a very characteristic narrow frequency that remains constant throughout the duration of the events (fig. 10A,B). The dominant frequency may vary from event to event, but the range of frequency is still narrow, from 0.7 to 2.4 Hz. **** I think that with the amplifier/filter that extends the range of the 4.5 Hz sensor to about 0.5 Hz, harmonic tremor will be recorded. Cheers, John At 06:39 AM 12/30/2005, you wrote: >In a message dated 30/12/2005, sismos@.............. writes: > >>http://earthquake.usgs.gov/image_glossary/harmonic_tremor.html > > >Hi Angel, > > Thanks. There seems to be no information on frequency, > period, or amplitude even on the volcano website. > > See also > http://earthquake.usgs.gov/image_glossary/richter_scale.html > > http://earthquake.usgs.gov/image_glossary/seismic_moment.html > > >http://earthquake.usgs.gov/image_glossary/magnitude.html > > > Regards, > > Chris __________________________________________________________ Public Seismic Network Mailing List (PSN-L) Subject: Digital Inverse Filter From: Bobhelenmcclure@....... Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2005 14:25:10 EST Hi all, There has been recent discussion of inverse filtering, both analog and digital. Chris Chapman has correctly noted: "The other problem is that the additional x100 gain at 0.5 Hz has to come from somewhere. If it is not provided by an auxiliary amplifier, it will have to come from the main amplifier, probably reducing the range and increasing the noise a bit. You also have the stepwise digitisation to cope with. This can limit the accuracy of the compensation process. If you had a signal of 1,000 counts at 4.5 Hz, there will be just 10 counts at 1/10 the frequency to do any compensation. Using an additional compensation amplifier is likely to give better results. Lower signal levels cannot be fully compensated - the digital signal is just not available - unless you are either using a 24 bit ADC, or are using an oversampling technique to increase the accuracy." If you should still want to try to extend the low frequency response of a 4.5Hz geophone, I have implemented a digital inverse filter which can operate on PSN Type 4 files. The application is "WQFilter.exe". To download it, go to _http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/wdq_utilities/index.html_ (http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/wdq_utilities/index.html) and download the file "seismic_dataq.zip". Extract "WQFilter.exe" and "WQFilterHlp.txt" from the zip file. My personal opinion is that trying to use a 4.5Hz geophone is a pretty futile exercise for most amateur seismologists, unless you have an interest in local cultural noise or are sitting on top of an active volcano. I use moderate period homebuilt sensors for my station. They range in natural period from ~5 seconds to ~15 seconds, and for them, the use of "WQFilter" yields event waveforms closely resembling those recorded by professional long period instruments. I use oversampling and DC amplifiers as well for data acquisition. Regards, Bob
Hi all,
 
  There has been recent discussion of inverse filtering, both anal= og=20 and digital. Chris Chapman has correctly noted:
 
    "The other problem is that the additional x100 gain=20= at=20 0.5 Hz has to come from somewhere. If it is not provided by an auxiliary=20 amplifier, it will have to come from the main amplifier, probably reducing t= he=20 range and increasing the noise a bit. You also have the stepwise digitisatio= n to=20 cope with. This can limit the accuracy of the compensation process.
 
    If you had a signal of 1,000 counts at 4.5 Hz, there= =20 will be just 10 counts at 1/10 the frequency to do any compensation. Using a= n=20 additional compensation amplifier is likely to give better results. Lower si= gnal=20 levels cannot be fully compensated - the digital signal is just not availabl= e -=20 unless you are either using a 24 bit ADC, or are using an oversampling techn= ique=20 to increase the accuracy."
 
  If you should still want to try to extend the low frequency resp= onse=20 of a 4.5Hz geophone, I have implemented a digital inverse filter which can=20 operate on PSN Type 4 files. The application is "WQFilter.exe". To download=20= it,=20 go to
 
   = http://www.jclahr.com/science/psn/mcclure/wdq_utilities/index.html
and download the file "seismic_dataq.zip". Extract "WQFilter.exe" and=20 "WQFilterHlp.txt" from the zip file.
 
  My personal opinion is that trying to use a 4.5Hz geophone is a=20 pretty futile exercise for most amateur seismologists, unless you have an=20 interest in local cultural noise or are sitting on top of an active volcano.= I=20 use moderate period homebuilt sensors for my station. They range in natural=20 period from ~5 seconds to ~15 seconds, and for them, the use of "WQFilter"=20 yields event waveforms closely resembling those recorded by professional lon= g=20 period instruments. I use oversampling and DC amplifiers as well for data=20 acquisition.
 
Regards,
 
Bob